# How do the europeans want to justify burka (burqa?) ban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089 "2010-05-20T02:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/21 "2010-05-20T11:43:59Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The European nations have national cultures. France is (or was historically) a place to wear berets and eat a zillion kinds of cheese. Germany is (or was) for people to wear shorts and eat sausage. It is a generalization, but there is a kernel of truth. > > People dressing like foreigners are … foreign. They are a threat to the national culture. This is hard for an American to grasp. Look how upset Europeans are (from time to time) about the latest American fad or food. Have you ever seen a reply from America? (OK, Freedom Fries, but you can remember how silly that was.) > > If an American wants to dress like a devout Muslim, or Jew, or Pastafarian, Americans are no more annoyed than we are about low-riser jeans. To a European, people who are different ought to conform to the national culture. > > (The Europeans may now attack.) Team America wasn’t a documentary. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/22 "2010-05-20T12:08:51Z")
The Thirty Years War, WWI, WWII, Stalin, Franco and the Holocaust did not spring from nothing. They sprung from Old World norms. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/23 "2010-05-20T12:15:05Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The Thirty Years War, WWI, WWII, Stalin, Franco and the Holocaust did not spring from nothing. They sprung from Old World norms. To be sure. But to be fair, Europe is also responsible for some bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/24 "2010-05-20T12:18:04Z")
Well, balance is required. They also gave us Abba. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/25 "2010-05-20T12:42:00Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > FWIW, I believe that a guest like **Pancakes** is unable to run searches, though I may be wrong on this. In any case, I consider it only courtesy that, if you remember something being discussed four months ago or so, you find the discussion and provide a link if possible. thanks for the concern, but the search option is available. that slate article was interesting. i wonder how much of that was written tongue-in-cheekish… ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/26 "2010-05-20T12:50:39Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The Thirty Years War, WWI, WWII, Stalin, Franco and the Holocaust did not spring from nothing. They sprung from Old World norms. What are you on about? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/27 "2010-05-20T12:54:55Z")
Europeans are simply less tolerant of people who are culturally different than Americans are. The desire to make everyone in France dress alike is a perfectly natural outcome of the historic European idea of ‘national culture.’ ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/28 "2010-05-20T12:56:50Z")
The main issue for me is societal cohesian. The (face-covering) burqa is an unassailable barrier to integration for the women who wear it in Europe, there is no opportunity for them to interact with non-muslims in a normal fasion. This is afterall the point of the burqa, to isolate your ‘possession’ from other people even when she’s out of your dominion. This is bad for both sides, since a lack of interaction between immigrant and native communities inevitably breeds hostility. And not unjustifiably IMO, since the burqa is indicative a complete lack of desire have a 2-way exchange between yourself and your adopted country, you just want to take the advantages that living in a modern developed country gives you with giving anything back. Why should we even allow immigration on those terms? What are we getting out of it if Muslims just form isolated communities that only interact among themselves? I also think that to some degree the burqa issue is really about how Europe deals with immigrants, and how much give and take there should be. This is difficult to mention in politics without racism coming up, so you get things like the burqa being brought up in isolation without discussion of the related issues. Personally I come from the perpective that religious beliefs shouldn’t grant you any more rights or permissions under law than those without them get. So unless I’m allowed to just make up random shit to believe in so I get to do what I want there needs to be some balance. And since I wouldn’t be allowed to walk around wearing a full-face covering I don’t see why they should either. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/29 "2010-05-20T12:59:24Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Europeans are simply less tolerant of people who are culturally different than Americans are. The desire to make everyone in France dress alike is a perfectly natural outcome of the historic European idea of ‘national culture.’ It’s true, American are known round the world for being a non-nationalistic, highly tolerant non-racist people. Pull the other one! ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/30 "2010-05-20T13:02:47Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > This is afterall the point of the burqa, to isolate your ‘possession’ from other people even when she’s out of your dominion. Really? Can you prove that? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/31 "2010-05-20T13:05:49Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Europeans are simply less tolerant of people who are culturally different than Americans are. The desire to make everyone in France dress alike is a perfectly natural outcome of the historic European idea of ‘national culture.’ Have you ever actually visited any countries in Europe? Seriously? There is no national dress anymore, there are vague trends that prodominate but you see all sorts of people from all over the world in most European cities, and especially amongst the younger generations you would be hardpressed to identify a person’s nationality by their garb. London is about as multicultural as a city can get and has been for many years. I’m not going to defend the French as I don’t know that much about France and its culture but saying Europeans are X or Y is largely meaningless. The “new world/old world” paradigm is rubbish. Some people have an idea that Ireland is still a mono or duo-culture but any visitor to Dublin in recent years would see that people from all over the world live and work here, most do so comfortably. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/32 "2010-05-20T13:11:10Z")
Good point. Please provide support with examples of successful New World political movements based on turning religious groups into lampshades, nationwide bans on religious clothing (Clue: Mexico) and periodic mass murder of minorities (Clue the US and Native Americans). You will find few in the last couple of centuries. While it is true the Europeans have pretty will calmed down since the last time the New World had to rescue the Old, the cultural underpinning of nationalism runs deep in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/33 "2010-05-20T13:18:11Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If an American wants to dress like a devout Muslim, or Jew, or Pastafarian, What is this, some long-haired, dope-smoking Italian that worships the Flying Spaghetti Monster? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/34 "2010-05-20T13:18:24Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I mean, to me it’s pretty much a million times more egregious and racist than the Arizona immigration laws, and yet nobody in America is riling against it. Most Americans aren’t riling against the Arizona law, mainly the media and the current administration. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/35 "2010-05-20T13:20:08Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > You will find few in the last couple of centuries. While it is true the Europeans have pretty will calmed down since the last time the New World had to rescue the Old, the cultural underpinning of nationalism runs deep in Europe. Although I don’t know if nationalism is any stronger in Europe than in the USA, there is nothing wrong with nationalism. The nation state is the best frame we have for creating successful and prosperous societies. And while it is true that Europe has been home to some rather bad things in recent history (say, last 500 years), Europe has also been home to most of the good things. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/36 "2010-05-20T13:24:03Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Good point. Please provide support with examples of successful New World political movements based on turning religious groups into lampshades, nationwide bans on religious clothing (Clue: Mexico) and periodic mass murder of minorities (Clue the US and Native Americans). > > You will find few in the last couple of centuries. While it is true the Europeans have pretty will calmed down since the last time the New World had to rescue the Old, the cultural underpinning of nationalism runs deep in Europe. How about racial segregation until the 1960s? (it’s difficult to even consider the US particularly civilised until that was finally abolished) Bombing of abortion clinics? The rabid right wing declaring that Obama is a Muslim? How would that even be an insult if the people didn’t already dislike Muslims? I’m don’t want to generalise, I know the majority of American agree with none of those things, but to hold America up as a paragon of tolerance is bullshit. And there is no way on Earth you could argue that the U.S. is less nationalistic than Europe. Europe and the U.S. have much the same issues (one would almost think that it’s because both are made up of humans), they just have different forms of expression. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/37 "2010-05-20T13:26:26Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Really? Can you prove that? Why the hell else was it invented? I can’t prove it, but given the lack of any other sensible explanation it’s a pretty obvious conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/38 "2010-05-20T13:44:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > As a security and social issue, I believe that burqas (niqabs, specifically) should not be worn in any situation where motorcycle helmets are similarly banned or discouraged. A situational ban is entirely reasonable. A blanket countrywide ban - not so much. Just to support this - such a move would be seen as perfectly reasonable and covers the alleged key concerns. There is upset and outrage amongst the more liberal of us across Europe because the obvious objections are about multicultural integration versus multicultural existence. However, we’re not a cohesive group (indeed, neither are ‘Europeans’ any more than ‘all Americans’) and the concerns raised are more subtle and nuanced. That means that we don’t really have the opportunity to carry out the yelling and abuse that we tend to see from our friends across the pond. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/39 "2010-05-20T13:45:32Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Good point. Please provide support with examples of successful New World political movements based on turning religious groups into lampshades, nationwide bans on religious clothing (Clue: Mexico) and periodic mass murder of minorities (Clue the US and Native Americans). > > You will find few in the last couple of centuries. While it is true the Europeans have pretty will calmed down since the last time the New World had to rescue the Old, the cultural underpinning of nationalism runs deep in Europe. I’m talking about the present and you are talking about the past. Indeed nationalism exists in Europe (as it does in North America0 but for over 50 years, European nation states have been committed to assembling an international framework of cooperation to insure that past evils would not be repeated on this continent. Most prosperous European states have had mass inward migration in the same period that has undermined the idea that each European country is an ethnic monoculture. Sure Europe has problems with racism, sectarianism (my own country being one of the unfortunate exemplars of this) but look around you in most major cities. The idea that somehow the Old World is full of tired old singular cultures and the New World is a multicultural paradise by comparison doesn’t really make sense to me, I’ve been in parts of Europe that have been multicultural and I have been in in parts of the US that have been ethnically, culturally homogeneous. Indeed, as a percentage France and Germany have much larger Muslim populations than the United States has. There are bigots in Europe and there are bigots in North America. I won’t argue with that. Talking about Europe or Europeans in the singular sense with regard to burquas or other issues relating to Islamic cultures is somewhat useless. The integration of Muslims is a significant issue in _certain_ European countries and not so in others. FWIW I do not support any country that would ban an item of clothing all out. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/40 "2010-05-20T13:56:26Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Chris Hitchens wrote a great piece about this law ban in France this week. > > [Linky.](http://www.slate.com/id/2253493) > > To sum up, he points out “they are attempting to lift a ban: a ban on the right of women to choose their own dress, a ban on the right of women to disagree with male and clerical authority, and a ban on the right of all citizens to look one another in the face.” > > I’ll have to agree with this. Seriously, being American and totally non-religious, I’m really not sympathetic toward a faith denying freedom for women. Did you have any response to post #8, which discussed a women who chose to wear the burqa of her own free will? It seems in that case this is very much a ban on the right of a citizen to disagree with male authority - the (mostly male) authorities in France want to tell her what she should and shouldn’t wear. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=3)