# How do the europeans want to justify burka (burqa?) ban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089 "2010-05-20T02:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/101 "2010-05-22T12:01:14Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > **Marmite** > > and for the “it’s not a religious issue, it’s a cultural one” i ask, does it make a difference? you’re targeting a sect of people and limiting their freedoms for really, minimal justification. the law is more of an inconvenience than a real deterrence. Yes it does make a difference, there are cultures where it is the norm to be naked or near naked in everyday life, but if those members of that culture choose of their own free will to emigrate uninvited to a society where clothes wearing is the norm then they can either adapt their habits or return to their own place of origin. They CANNOT demand that the people in the place where they chose to move to adapt to THEIR lifestyle. What next ? adopt Sharia law? Make honour killings legal? Make the status of women to be the chattels of men? Allow financial compensation to replace punishment for committing murder? If you move to a western culture you live by its standards; not pick and choose what cultural rules it suits you to obey. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/102 "2010-05-22T12:07:31Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > **Marmite** > > i understand where you’re coming from, but i’m still confused as to the legal justification of this law. is it to legislate away this cultural dissonance? is that even possible? this law has no teeth, especially in France. this would go a lot further if Saudi Arabia were to ban burkas, and i would totally understand the reasoning for woman’s lib in that case. However in a relatively free society such as France, where there are only 2000 burka wearers in the nation of 63 million, it just doesn’t make sense to me. > > as for driving, etc? i have no problem with legislating that you can’t drive with a mask on. i get that. i WOULD have a problem if they said “you can’t drive with a face-veil on” as the burka ban would say because it targets burkas specifically. why? > > and for the “it’s not a religious issue, it’s a cultural one” i ask, does it make a difference? you’re targeting a sect of people and limiting their freedoms for really, minimal justification. the law is more of an inconvenience than a real deterrence. > > my main problem is the language. it targets burkas. the driving issues, the security issues, are bs as far as i’m concerned. if those were legitimate concerns, the language of the law wouldn’t be specific to “face-veils”. it would be an all-out ban on masks, which some states in the US actually have. SC i’m told has banned all forms of masks except for a 3 day window around halloween. I don’t know as I am not French. I was only explaining why they wear it and what they think about women who don’t. It’s not really about the face veil itself I think. These women are enveloped in a baggy Chador and that is ideal for concealment. As I said suicide bombing males and females wear these so France and everyone else I expect is concerned at what someone might be concealing. Let me put it this way. Would you if you worked in Canary Wharf or one of the US business skyscrapers be happy to share a lift with someone wearing swirling black chador and only eye slits? Would one even be allowed in the building before a thorough search? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/103 "2010-05-22T12:17:36Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I call bollocks on both of those claims, to be honest. The first in being so general, and the second on the idea that banning something will make people with a strong political belief in it simply give up. Ban something that people want, and they’ll a) want it all the more and b) hate you for banning it. > > And if you believe that banning it will make people go off and join a training camp in Riyadh - why exactly are you for that? What if say your child was at school and they employed one of the burkha clad women as his teacher in France? Are you happy to have him be taught by a figure swathed in black cloth where only he can see the eyes? That is where it might head because if you allow it they can get teaching jobs and teach your children. Would your child be happy about having that teacher? what about her rights in the law? what about your rights as a parent to change teachers? It’s not just about them shopping in a market. They may be serving you at the store. If they are refused jobs and claim discrimination what then? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/104 "2010-05-22T12:24:56Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Yes it does make a difference, there are cultures where it is the norm to be naked or near naked in everyday life, but if those members of that culture choose of their own free will to emigrate uninvited to a society where clothes wearing is the norm then they can either adapt their habits or return to their own place of origin. > > They CANNOT demand that the people in the place where they chose to move to adapt to THEIR lifestyle. > What next ? adopt Sharia law? > Make honour killings legal? > Make the status of women to be the chattels of men? > > Allow financial compensation to replace punishment for committing murder? > > If you move to a western culture you live by its standards; not pick and choose what cultural rules it suits you to obey. what a twisting of logic there. nobody’s asking France to conform to burqa wearing, only to let them wear what their culture dictates. hindu women wear bindis (dots on their forehead). does not banning bindis mean France has ADOPTED bindis? and the slippery slope of not banning burqas somehow leading to France becoming a haven of terrorists and arabs complete with Sharia law was ridiculous at first, but now has become full out ridiculous. and Marmite… if it was about their flowing dress, why not ban flowing dresses in general? even phrasing it as banning “chadors” specifically is geared towards bigotry, language-wise. and personally, while i would feel uncomfortable standing next to a woman in a full burka, it is more out of empathy that she was raised by such skewed cultural norms rather than fear of being exploded. that doesn’t compel me to tear the garments right off her face/head though. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/105 "2010-05-22T12:32:28Z")
I’ve noticed the less repressed muslims who don’t adopt the ugly black burka and niquab, favouring bright coloured scarves and beautufully patterned robes, seem a little less averse to allowing their curves to be seen. Those black-clad ninja types could be carrying an RPG under their shapeless coverings, and might do yet. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/106 "2010-05-22T14:03:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Those black-clad ninja types could be carrying an RPG under their shapeless coverings, and might do yet. You are going to worry yourself to death. Do you think nuns might have razor-sharp rulers poised to strike? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/107 "2010-05-22T21:22:57Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yes, because they don’t already have an imaginary sky pixie, who via his representatives on Earth tells them what to eat, drink, wear, and when and when not to fuck, right? So when someone already is told what to do, it’s perfectly fine to add stuff to that? It’s perfectly valid to ban something, so long as someone has a self-chosen abstinence from something else? That’s a terrible argument. > [@](#): > > Remember, I’m non-religious. I’ve got just as much right to treat their beliefs with disdain, as they have to think I am a god-forsaken heathen. Incorrect. You have just as much right to think that as they do to think otherwise. When you want to actually _treat someone differently, then you do not have an analogous situation with what someone thinks_. The two aren’t equivalent. [QUOTE=Marmite Lover] What if say your child was at school and they employed one of the burkha clad women as his teacher in France? Are you happy to have him be taught by a figure swathed in black cloth where only he can see the eyes? [/QUOTE] Honestly, I don’t know. Are women wearing burqas harmed so far as their teaching ability goes in some way? I don’t know. Do you have some insight, or studies, or something? What makes a burqa, in particular, worthy of an official ban when, say, wearing a tightly drawn hoodie isn’t? > [@](#): > > That is where it might head because if you allow it they can get teaching jobs and teach your children. That’s actually entirely inaccurate. After all, I may go to a political rally wearing a shirt in support of a party or candidate, carrying a sign declaring my loyalty. I can go to a beach and wear just swimming trunks. However, while I am allowed to do those things, that doesn’t mean that I must also be allowed to do those things in a classroom while teaching kids. > [@](#): > > Would your child be happy about having that teacher? what about her rights in the law? what about your rights as a parent to change teachers? > It’s not just about them shopping in a market. > They may be serving you at the store. If they are refused jobs and claim discrimination what then? Then their case will be heard under different law. It’s not a case of all or nothing - if we “allow” women to wear burqas in public, why, they’ll take over the courts and sue anyone who doesn’t let there be burqa-clad firefighters! It’s not unreasonable to say for some jobs that there are types of clothing which would make a candidate unsuitable - and so long as that policy is more along the lines of “no flowing clothing, that could be caught” or some generalised statement which actually seeks to avoid whatever problems might occur instead of singling out Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/108 "2010-05-22T21:33:52Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > ^^ This. I fully agree. You summed up perfectly. [tips hat] > > The whole problem with this is society makes its own demands too. Respect these demands not out of law, but basic courtesy. Since basic courtesy can’t seemed to be found, well, make a law. You want to be part of a society, show some respect for us by showing your face. Here’s the thing. You can’t force respect. Any attempt at forcing respect - and especially, phrasing it in such a way - will inevitably fail. And not just fail, but actually make you less respected.\* I\* certainly have less respect for someone who would want to force this sort of thing. The other point worth noting is that it is not simply a “Oh, you want to join society?” affair. It’s not one-way. We want them, and people in general, to join our society. Closing our doors and only allowing those who conform to join our exclusive club leads to stagnation - on both sides. You can’t persuade someone that your way of things is right and just and civilized by being a bastard to them. It’s the equivalent of trying to make someone see something by grabbing their head and physically pointing it in the right direction. Surprisingly, people tend to take offense at that. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/109 "2010-05-22T22:52:56Z")
How is saying “Can you please show your face during your interactions with the society you have chosen to live in? You’re disturbing the natives!” “being a bastard” to them? Aren’t they “being bastards” to western women, when they forbid them from getting a tan in their country? What’s good for the goose n that… ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/110 "2010-05-23T00:12:50Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How is saying “Can you please show your face during your interactions with the society you have chosen to live in? You’re disturbing the natives!” “being a bastard” to them? _Saying_ that would not be being a bastard, depending on how you say it, of course. Mandating, by law, that you may not wear clothes that are for some people of strong significance - hell, that you may not wear clothes even if they have zero personal interest for you - seems to me like being a bastard. Beyond that, referring to imaginary sky pixies and comparing burqas to the dress of bandits doesn’t really strike me in tone terms as being particularly polite, pleasant, or respectful. > [@](#): > > Aren’t they “being bastards” to western women, when they forbid them from getting a tan in their country? Depending on who “they” are, then yes. But bastardry by some doesn’t mean you get a free-to-be-a-bastard card in return. Edit: Note your response in that last point. Clearly you hold in contempt those who would attempt to force their beliefs and opinions on those in their country by mandating what they may or may not wear. Why is it _you_ don’t look at that both ways? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/111 "2010-05-23T10:21:06Z")
Look, they are already self-segregating themselves from the societies they live in by shutting out the world beyond their cultural/religious background. I’m not saying they should have their niqabs forcibly removed from their faces… that would be a gross infringement on civil liberties. I am merely suggesting that if they expect to be treated as human beings and not anonymous shrouds, they need to make a little more effort. We have accepted and tolerated enough of their cultural transportation. And don’t compare this to Sikh’s turbans and Jewish skull-caps — they just look silly; they are not a potential threat in a public environment unless they can roll down into balaclavas. When the Japanese took onboard Rock n Roll and Coca Cola, the west wasn’t forcing it down their throats against the will of their population. They took off because people liked them. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/112 "2010-05-24T00:24:23Z")
you’re jumbling the issues of face-veil vs flowing robes. if you want to ban flowing robes for security reasons, i can understand (but not necessarily agree with) that logic. if you want to ban facial coverings for identification purposes, i can understand (but not agree with) that logic. using the term face-veil that allows for nuns, hassidic jews, trenchcoat wearers to freely conceal rpg launchers in their coats, AND cough-mask wearers, trick or treaters, and skiers to freely conceal THEIR identities seems to me to target muslims… just because they’re muslim. as for the repeated questions of “would you be comfortable with …” i see that as close to an admission that this law doesn’t have any legal legs to stand on. it’s even weak as a leap of logic. what i hear is that: some people aren’t comfortable with (burqa wearers/homosexuals/minorities) teaching school so naturally it mean that there should be a legal ban on (burqa wearers/homosexuals/minorities) in public areas. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/113 "2010-05-24T12:11:43Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The other point worth noting is that it is not simply a “Oh, you want to join society?” affair. It’s not one-way. We want them, and people in general, to join our society. Closing our doors and only allowing those who conform to join our exclusive club leads to stagnation - on both sides. You can’t persuade someone that your way of things is right and just and civilized by being a bastard to them. It’s the equivalent of trying to make someone see something by grabbing their head and physically pointing it in the right direction. Surprisingly, people tend to take offense at that. I must have missed it when the majority community said that they WANTED people from other cultures to join our society. Did they advertise overseas and say please come to our country? Sorry I don’t remember that, as far as I’m concerned people from other cultures are welcome to live in my country as it makes the world a more interesting and colourful place. But when they abuse our hospitality or expect us to conform to them as ininvited guest then no, they’re not welcome. If I go to Saudi for example I do not drink alcohol or snog women in public, I do not eat pork. And I don’t feel hard done by because of this because it was my CHOICE to enter their country. If I don’t like it then I can always leave. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/114 "2010-05-24T12:18:15Z")
I’m also thinking that to make them feel even more at home, we should whip them for refusal to remove the niqab. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/115 "2010-05-24T13:31:38Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > If I go to Saudi for example I do not drink alcohol or snog women in public, I do not eat pork. > > And I don’t feel hard done by because of this because it was my CHOICE to enter their country. > If I don’t like it then I can always leave. So if an American/French/Belgian woman wanted to wear a face veil, the law would … what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/116 "2010-05-24T13:38:05Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Those black-clad ninja types could be carrying an RPG under their shapeless coverings, and might do yet. So might a man with an overcoat. I anxiously await your no doubt brilliant plan to deal with _that_ threat. Require everyone to wear a string bikini, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/117 "2010-05-24T13:55:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So might a man with an overcoat. I anxiously await your no doubt brilliant plan to deal with _that_ threat. Not that I buy into this argument about security, but I think that a guy with an overcoat is more likely to be searched than a women in a burkha. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/118 "2010-05-24T14:12:25Z")
Under this law, the guy in the overcoat is OK, the woman in the veil would be in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/119 "2010-05-24T14:20:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Not that I buy into this argument about security, but I think that a guy with an overcoat is more likely to be searched than a women in a burkha. So what? Change law enforcement guidelines, then, not the law. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/120 "2010-05-25T02:55:20Z")
And then the defenders of this silly proposal fell quiet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=7)