# How do the europeans want to justify burka (burqa?) ban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089 "2010-05-20T02:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/121 "2010-05-25T09:38:29Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > if it was about their flowing dress, why not ban flowing dresses in general? even phrasing it as banning “chadors” specifically is geared towards bigotry, language-wise. > > and personally, while i would feel uncomfortable standing next to a woman in a full burka, it is more out of empathy that she was raised by such skewed cultural norms rather than fear of being exploded. that doesn’t compel me to tear the garments right off her face/head though. How could you be sure it was a woman standing next to you? Like I said a lot of men have been caught wearing them. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/122 "2010-05-25T09:48:30Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Honestly, I don’t know. Are women wearing burqas harmed so far as their teaching ability goes in some way? I don’t know. Do you have some insight, or studies, or something? What makes a burqa, in particular, worthy of an official ban when, say, wearing a tightly drawn hoodie isn’t? > That’s actually entirely inaccurate. After all, I may go to a political rally wearing a shirt in support of a party or candidate, carrying a sign declaring my loyalty. I can go to a beach and wear just swimming trunks. However, while I am allowed to do those things, that doesn’t mean that I must also be allowed to do those things in a classroom while teaching kids. Then their case will be heard under different law. It’s not a case of all or nothing - if we “allow” women to wear burqas in public, why, they’ll take over the courts and sue anyone who doesn’t let there be burqa-clad firefighters! It’s not unreasonable to say for some jobs that there are types of clothing which would make a candidate unsuitable - and so long as that policy is more along the lines of “no flowing clothing, that could be caught” or some generalised statement which actually seeks to avoid whatever problems might occur instead of singling out Muslims? Do you know that many shopping malls in the UK ban hoodies? Not just tightly drawn ones. Do you know that most Muslims are totally against the burkha? It is nothing to do with religion, it is not a Muslim issue. It is a cultural mode of dress which has been linked to religion by the extremist salafists. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/123 "2010-05-25T09:53:10Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > _Saying_ that would not be being a bastard, depending on how you say it, of course. > > Mandating, by law, that you may not wear clothes that are for some people of strong significance - hell, that you may not wear clothes even if they have zero personal interest for you - seems to me like being a bastard. > > Beyond that, referring to imaginary sky pixies and comparing burqas to the dress of bandits doesn’t really strike me in tone terms as being particularly polite, pleasant, or respectful. Depending on who “they” are, then yes. But bastardry by some doesn’t mean you get a free-to-be-a-bastard card in return. > > Edit: Note your response in that last point. Clearly you hold in contempt those who would attempt to force their beliefs and opinions on those in their country by mandating what they may or may not wear. Why is it _you_ don’t look at that both ways? If you look at the numbers of burkha wearers you will see it is very small. That is because it is not a religious requirement. What they do do by wearing the burkha however is make the French and everyone else think that it is. They are misleading the public. If you talk of burkha you automatically think Muslim don’t you? BUT almost all Muslims are against Burkha. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/124 "2010-05-25T09:59:20Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Not that I buy into this argument about security, but I think that a guy with an overcoat is more likely to be searched than a women in a burkha. First off there is no way to tell if it is a woman or a man under the burkha, but why not test it. Try going up on a elevator in the Empire State building and see if you get stopped, then go in a trench coat. I know which one I bet gets stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/125 "2010-05-25T10:08:03Z")
Even Mecca the cradle of Islam prohibits the burkha. 2005 bomber wearing burkha. > **[Video: Moment 21/7 'bomber' fled in a burka](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-437327/Video-Moment-21-7-bomber-fled-burka.html)** > > A white handbag dangling from his left arm, this is the towering 6ft2in figure of a July 21 bomb suspect disguised in a full-length burkha. Yassin Oman allegedly fled London dressed as a Muslim woman after failing to blow up an Underground train ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/126 "2010-05-25T11:00:54Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > How could you be sure it was a woman standing next to you? > Like I said a lot of men have been caught wearing them. i’ll concede the point that i don’t know the gender under a burqa but do you concede to my point that the language of the law wasn’t written with security in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/127 "2010-05-25T12:29:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So what? Change law enforcement guidelines, then, not the law. It isn’t the guidelines, it is the chance of someone not doing their job correctly because they fear the repercussions of messing with someone’s religious ‘rights’ and then that person getting all lawsuity on them. I worked in security for years and while this particular incident wasn’t of concern, it certainly was when we had to kick drunk people off the facility who happened to be natives. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/128 "2010-05-25T13:56:46Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > How could you be sure it was a woman standing next to you? > Like I said a lot of men have been caught wearing them. So… what you’re saying is that cross-dressing is very popular in islamic culture? Huh. Never would have thought it. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/129 "2010-05-25T15:07:29Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > And then the defenders of this silly proposal fell quiet. No they’re just tired of your sad defense of this barbaric, subhuman practice. It has no ties to religion so that word is now stricken from any further statements on this matter. People can’t walk into a bank into New York wearing a Halloween mask, as is reasonable. Would you feel better if there was no “law” banning the burqa, but all public venues then decided (as is their right) no not serve/allow access to people who refuse to make their faces visible? I can’t for the life of me figure you out. You’ve lived in that area for so long, you’ve provided many insights into that part of the world in your posts, and are well aware of things that are forbidden which we in the west wouldn’t give two seconds thought about. You obvious see nothing wrong with that part of the world imposing rules different that those you are used to. Allow the west then to have it’s own rules. It is incorrect to say the west is a pure melting pot of all different cultural ideas. We pick and choose the things we accept from other cultures; incorporating things we approve and rejecting others. In the 21st century, we reject hiding faces in public, especially when it is derived from a standpoint of treating women as property. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/130 "2010-05-25T15:13:17Z")
Here in the UK, we have the most cctv cameras per sq ml in the world. What is the point of spending all that money when it can be foiled by donning a burqa out of sight of the camera? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/131 "2010-05-25T15:38:25Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > No they’re just tired of your sad defense of this barbaric, subhuman practice. Dressing like you want to dress is barbaric? Why? Letting the police harass people for what they are wearing is _not_ barbaric? Why? > [@BwanaBob](#): > > In the 21st century, we reject hiding faces in public, especially when it is derived from a standpoint of treating women as property. How did you come to this conclusion? Are you simply making stuff up? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/132 "2010-05-25T15:47:43Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > How am I really not supposed to laugh or shake my head at someone who might be forced to don a full burqa while standing in between a female CEO in a Claiborne suit and a model in a thong on a hot day in New York City? That would look like a poster for repression. 😃 > > It is wrong to cover your entire body with clothing in hot weather for your faith? No. But is it weird? Yes. A number of hot-climate cultures have full-coverage clothing for both men and women (see [Tuareg](http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/spritesjun.suffolk/33%20The%20Tuareg%20Men.jpg), etc.) Just because full-coverage seems hot to you–given the kinds of fabrics and cuts you’re used to–doesn’t mean it really is for people who know how to dress that way. I have seen some complaints that burqas made of modern colorfast synthetic materials _are_ hotter than cotton ones. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/133 "2010-05-25T16:57:48Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > It isn’t the guidelines, it is the chance of someone not doing their job correctly because they fear the repercussions of messing with someone’s religious ‘rights’ and then that person getting all lawsuity on them. I worked in security for years and while this particular incident wasn’t of concern, it certainly was when we had to kick drunk people off the facility who happened to be natives. Again, guidelines - and we’re talking about law enforcement, not security. > [@spark240](#): > > A number of hot-climate cultures have full-coverage clothing for both men and women (see [Tuareg](http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/spritesjun.suffolk/33%20The%20Tuareg%20Men.jpg), etc.) Just because full-coverage seems hot to you–given the kinds of fabrics and cuts you’re used to–doesn’t mean it really is for people who know how to dress that way. In fact, covering one’s head is a necessity when it’s 120 degrees out. Obviously, it’s not going to be in Paris, but the hijab (and similar stuff like the dupatta often worn by Indian women) is based on a practical concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/134 "2010-05-25T17:01:52Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Look, they are already self-segregating themselves from the societies they live in by shutting out the world beyond their cultural/religious background. Really? I mean, there would surely be no point to banning the wearing of particular garments in public if people weren’t out in public wearing them. It’s very hard to shut out the world when you’re standing out in the middle of it. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying they should have their niqabs forcibly removed from their faces… that would be a gross infringement on civil liberties. I am merely suggesting that if they expect to be treated as human beings and not anonymous shrouds, they need to make a little more effort. Is our capacity to consider people human beings so easily disregarded? Are our guarantees of human rights condescendingly dismissed when we deem someone isn’t making sufficient effort to our liking? That’s a dangerous path to go down. I submit to be treated like a human being you need one thing only; to be a human being. It’s not a matter of showing the proper obsequience. > [@](#): > > We have accepted and tolerated enough of their cultural transportation. Such as? > [@](#): > > And don’t compare this to Sikh’s turbans and Jewish skull-caps — they just look silly; they are not a potential threat in a public environment unless they can roll down into balaclavas. Thank you for rebutting arguments before I make them - it’s very easy, i’m sure, to counter the silly arguments, and tempting even when i’m not actually making them. > [@](#): > > When the Japanese took onboard Rock n Roll and Coca Cola, the west wasn’t forcing it down their throats against the will of their population. They took off because people liked them. Bit of an ironic statement, there. Should we not, then, rely upon the simple betterment of not wearing such clothes, rather than force it down people’s throats against their will? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/135 "2010-05-25T17:09:28Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I must have missed it when the majority community said that they WANTED people from other cultures to join our society. > > Did they advertise overseas and say please come to our country? Yes? I mean, there’s open borders, there’s immigration, there are treaties and agreements with other countries to make immigration easier (including within the EU). > [@](#): > > Sorry I don’t remember that, as far as I’m concerned people from other cultures are welcome to live in my country as it makes the world a more interesting and colourful place. > > But when they abuse our hospitality or expect us to conform to them as ininvited guest then no, they’re not welcome. I don’t understand how _we_, precisely, are conforming to them. What changes have been forced upon us, other than the apparently onerous task of seeing people wearing very covering clothes? What demands have been made in changes to our conduct? What abuses of hospitality have been committed? > [@](#): > > If I go to Saudi for example I do not drink alcohol or snog women in public, I do not eat pork. > > And I don’t feel hard done by because of this because it was my CHOICE to enter their country. Sure. But for you, I would imagine, drinking alcohol, snogging women in public, and eating pork are not what you’d consider vital aspects of your religion or culture. I really wouldn’t have said SA was a particularly excellent comparison to choose to compare with. > [@](#): > > If I don’t like it then I can always leave. Yes, you can. Off you go, then. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/136 "2010-05-25T17:18:36Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Do you know that many shopping malls in the UK ban hoodies? > Not just tightly drawn ones. Yes, i’m myself British. I’m not sure it’s most, but quite a few of them certainly do. What does the actions of a private company in the UK have to do with the actions of the French government? > [@](#): > > Do you know that most Muslims are totally against the burkha? Most people in France, full stop, appear to be against the burqa. Most people in the UK, judging by the recent election, appear to be against the Labour party. So I suppose we’d better ban that, too. > [@](#): > > It is nothing to do with religion, it is not a Muslim issue. > > It is a cultural mode of dress which has been linked to religion by the extremist salafists. Ah, but here you’ve been talking popular support, not objectivity. You need to show not that it is not a Muslim issue, but rather, that the French people, that French Muslims, do not consider it a Muslim issue. > [@](#): > > If you look at the numbers of burkha wearers you will see it is very small. That is because it is not a religious requirement. Not for the entirety of Muslims, sure. Hey, the majority of Christians don’t take the Eucharist. That doesn’t make it not a religious requirement - it just means that, for some Christians, it is, and for some others, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > What they do do by wearing the burkha however is make the French and everyone else think that it is. They are misleading the public. Misleading implies deliberate deception. Do you believe that those French Muslims wearing burqas are solely doing so in order to decieve? That they honestly have no personal or religious reasons for doing so? > [@](#): > > If you talk of burkha you automatically think Muslim don’t you? > BUT almost all Muslims are against Burkha. So? No religion has followers in lockstep to a single creed. Most Christians don’t live in monasteries, but that does not mean that there are no monks who consider their way of life to be religious in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/137 "2010-05-25T17:20:01Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I must have missed it when the majority community said that they WANTED people from other cultures to join our society. Not surprising, really. You miss a lot. > [@](#): > > Did they advertise overseas and say please come to our country? [Yes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Windrush#West_Indian_immigrants), [actually](http://jrs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/1/3-4/214). ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/138 "2010-05-25T20:32:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Are our guarantees of human rights condescendingly dismissed when we deem someone isn’t making sufficient effort to our liking? This is where the issue is. The burkha is garmet used to deny women an equal place in society. It is a tool to protect the man’s property. To deny its use is to promote human rights, not deny them. And while a person may not have the ability to wear the burka, the loss of that freedom is less than the one gained from those forced to wear it and now have the excuse not to. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/139 "2010-05-25T20:49:53Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > This is where the issue is. The burkha is garmet used to deny women an equal place in society. It is a tool to protect the man’s property. To deny its use is to promote human rights, not deny them. And while a person may not have the ability to wear the burka, the loss of that freedom is less than the one gained from those forced to wear it and now have the excuse not to. But women forced to wear a burqa by men aren’t going to be made more free by banning the burqa. The response by such men isn’t going to be to back down, it’s going to be to ban them from leaving the house at all - or simply allowing them to leave the house uncovered, and punishing them later. The issue is not the form that restriction of freedom takes, because that’s just a symptom. Ban burqas, and there will still be men trying to deny women an equal place in society - they’ll just go about it in different ways, plus they’ll now be annoyed by the imposition upon their means of control. I certainly sympathise with the ideal, and it’s an idea that in principle can sound grand, but it just won’t work in practice. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/140 "2010-05-25T20:53:47Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But women forced to wear a burqa by men aren’t going to be made more free by banning the burqa. The response by such men isn’t going to be to back down, it’s going to be to ban them from leaving the house at all - or simply allowing them to leave the house uncovered, and punishing them later. Then we punish the men in things called “court rooms” by removing them from the family home entirely, to share a cell with a big biker from Rotherham. Eventually, they’ll get the message. Or we could chop off the hand that inflicted the punishment upon the wife, daughter, whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=8)