# How do the europeans want to justify burka (burqa?) ban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089 "2010-05-20T02:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/141 "2010-05-25T20:57:46Z")
On what grounds? It’s not actually illegal to forbid one’s spouse from leaving the home or going around without a headcovering. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/142 "2010-05-25T20:59:29Z")
Banning it may accomplish no more than what you say. But it could make it easier for those women who do manage to get out of the house to interact with other people. At least, imho, it sends a message that we don’t tolerate people being treated like property. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/143 "2010-05-25T21:01:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Then we punish the men in things called “court rooms” by removing them from the family home entirely, to share a cell with a big biker from Rotherham. Eventually, they’ll get the message. And we know who these men are and what their crimes are how, exactly? Note, of course, that your interesting and original “court room” suggestion could also apply to those people you fear hide weapons or otherwise dangerous items under their clothes, or who shoplift and the like. Since we do that already, clearly they’ve got the message, so happily that kind of thing isn’t at all a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/144 "2010-05-25T21:02:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > On what grounds? It’s not actually illegal to forbid one’s spouse from leaving the home or going around without a headcovering. I was watching a TV show in Yemen discussing a man’s obligation to beat his wife. It is for her benefit that you do so. A really big ‘WTF?’ moment. If the person is so intimidated that their husband’s word is equivalent to force, then is that no illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/145 "2010-05-25T21:03:55Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > i’ll concede the point that i don’t know the gender under a burqa but do you concede to my point that the language of the law wasn’t written with security in mind? I don’t know? I tend to think possibly it is a religious issue. An anti Islamic thing. Who knows?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/146 "2010-05-25T21:04:26Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Banning it may accomplish no more than what you say. > But it could make it easier for those women who do manage to get out of the house to interact with other people. At least, imho, it sends a message that we don’t tolerate people being treated like property. It could. On the other hand, it might mean that such women get zero opportunity to leave the house and interact with other people, and learn of other options for their lives. A message of that sort, I agree with you, is valuable - even in some cases more valuable than an actual practical disadvantage. But comparing the effects of an intangible message is a lot more difficult than that of practical effects; we really can’t say what value such a message would have. And, I would argue, it is counter-balanced by it also sending a message of singling out Muslims for special discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/147 "2010-05-25T21:04:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > On what grounds? It’s not actually illegal to forbid one’s spouse from leaving the home It is if they use physical force of any sort. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > or going around without a headcovering. Not sure what you are on about here. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/148 "2010-05-25T21:08:10Z")
It’s not “singling the muslims out”! If it was the English League Of Morris Dancers who wanted to revive the traditions and dress of Dick Turpin set to a musical backing, it would still be frowned upon. And we wouldn’t let them off if they said “Look, we wont do the ‘Stand and deliver!’ bit.” If Hari Krishnas started hanging about in airports wearing balaclavas, they’d soon be moved along. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/149 "2010-05-25T21:08:28Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > So… what you’re saying is that cross-dressing is very popular in islamic culture? Huh. Never would have thought it. Good God!! the burkha is NOT Islamic. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/150 "2010-05-25T21:20:51Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It’s not “singling the muslims out”! If it was the English League Of Morris Dancers who wanted to revive the traditions and dress of Dick Turpin set to a musical backing, it would still be frowned upon. And we wouldn’t let them off if they said “Look, we wont do the ‘Stand and deliver!’ bit.” > > If Hari Krishnas started hanging about in airports wearing balaclavas, they’d soon be moved along. Are balaclavas banned in France or Belgium? Masks? Highwaymen-esque capes? Hoodies? Robes? 'cos it seems like there’s a bit of a difference between “frowned upon” or “moved along” and “specific law targeting particular clothing, designed to ban in public entirely”. I mean, if there were no difference, presumably you would not see a need for a ban - burqa wearers would be “moved along” like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/151 "2010-05-25T21:28:13Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Banning it may accomplish no more than what you say. > But it could make it easier for those women who do manage to get out of the house to interact with other people. You know, they’re not gagged. They _can_ interact. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/152 "2010-05-25T21:30:11Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > You know, they’re not gagged. They _can_ interact. And who would want to interact with them when half of what makes up communication has to do with the face? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/153 "2010-05-25T21:32:30Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > And who would want to interact with them when half of what makes up communication has to do with the face? Ah. So it’s not _their freedom_ to interact that you’re concerned with. It’s the comfort of other people. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/154 "2010-05-25T21:44:33Z")
You think hiding inside a tent makes communication easy? The idea is that they have a chance to interact like everyone else does and see the benefit of doing so. Not so easy when they person they are talking to can’t see half the communication. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/155 "2010-05-26T00:37:41Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You think hiding inside a tent makes communication easy? The idea is that they have a chance to interact like everyone else does and see the benefit of doing so. Not so easy when they person they are talking to can’t see half the communication. That actually strikes me as an illogical argument. You’re assuming that, without facial responses being obvious, there’s zero way to account for that deficiency in communication. I mean, I have the ability to press a button on an elevator with both my left and right hands. If I were to lose one arm, it would not be correct to assume that I will only be able to call for 50% of the elevators I have before - i’ll just use my non-missing arm to compensate. Likewise, if you’re unable to communicate via facial cues for physical or self-chosen reasons, it may well be that you put more emphasis into your speaking voice, or use physical gestures, or some other means to get your point across. Besides, it’s not as though you can interact “like everyone else does”. Based upon that logic, we should all be learning different languages, different modes and methods of communication, in order that we can see the benefit of doing so. You think not learning other languages, or how to use email, or how to use a mobile phone, makes communication easy? Would you be in favour of enforcing a system so that people would have to try all those different ways of interacting so that they may learn from them? And, as a general point, you do not promote a willingness to listen and understand when you enforce something. Quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/156 "2010-05-26T01:26:30Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You think hiding inside a tent makes communication easy? The idea is that they have a chance to interact like everyone else does and see the benefit of doing so. Not so easy when they person they are talking to can’t see half the communication. It is even more difficult when the police give you a ticket if you walk outside your house. Almost like the state is making it more difficult to interact. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/157 "2010-05-26T01:26:49Z")
The idea is more than just communication, it is removing a person from the culture that is oppressing them and giving them a chance to interact as everyone else does. The burkha is a symptom of a larger issue. Giving someone a hand to take that first step may help them take the next one. Guaranteed? Nope. As I think I’ve stated earlier, I don’t like banning things that consenting adults want to do. I’m all for legalizing essentially all drugs. You want to inject radiator fluid into your veins? Go for it. Hang yourself from a fence post? As long as you don’t damage the fence post and pay for your cleanup, no problem. Do something unreasonable that is detrimental to others? Problem. The burkha falls within the latter for me and I can justify, at least to myself, the banning the damned thing and seeing it go into the ash heap of history. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/158 "2010-05-26T01:37:15Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Good God!! the burkha is NOT Islamic. Well, it’s not Arabic culture because some Persians wear it. And it’s not Middle-Eastern culture because people in Europe are wearing it. The general commonality to the people who wear it is they tend to be from Islamic-influenced cultures. So… what cultures are you saying _do_ like to cross-dress, then? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/159 "2010-05-26T01:40:41Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I was watching a TV show in Yemen discussing a man’s obligation to beat his wife. It is for her benefit that you do so. A really big ‘WTF?’ moment. If the person is so intimidated that their husband’s word is equivalent to force, then is that no illegal? No. How are you going to prove that somebody is intimidated? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It is if they use physical force of any sort. Of course it is. Fortunately, that’s already illegal. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/160 "2010-05-26T01:40:48Z")
Actually darn near nobody wears it, some Saudis, most Afghanis, a handful of eccentrics elsewhere. It simply is not a big problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=9)