# How do the europeans want to justify burka (burqa?) ban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089 "2010-05-20T02:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/161 "2010-05-26T08:28:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course it is. Fortunately, that’s already illegal. > > Thanks for playing. Oh, had we started already? What is your point? My point is that, unlike any other religious or cultural affectation, such as wearing a turban, sporting big curly sideburns, wearing a crucifix, etc, the right to the wearing of a face covering, except when legitimately challenged, can be abused to the detriment of society. And it is also dehumanising. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/162 "2010-05-26T12:29:28Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > The idea is more than just communication, it is removing a person from the culture that is oppressing them and giving them a chance to interact as everyone else does. The burkha is a symptom of a larger issue. Giving someone a hand to take that first step may help them take the next one. Guaranteed? Nope. Well, while we both agree that it isn’t guaranteed (and that a totally negative result is also not guaranteed), you presumably think that there’s a good likelihood that such a ban will both a) actually work and b) outweigh the potential negatives. I don’t think that such an idea is going to remove people from an oppressive culture, because the culture still exists. I think the inherent problem is that for a ban to work in that sort of situation you’re essentially asking an oppressive situation to give up control and power, and that’s unlikely to happen. > [@](#): > > As I think I’ve stated earlier, I don’t like banning things that consenting adults want to do. I’m all for legalizing essentially all drugs. You want to inject radiator fluid into your veins? Go for it. Hang yourself from a fence post? As long as you don’t damage the fence post and pay for your cleanup, no problem. Do something unreasonable that is detrimental to others? Problem. The burkha falls within the latter for me and I can justify, at least to myself, the banning the damned thing and seeing it go into the ash heap of history. Hey, on those terms, there’s plenty of things a ban justification could arise for. Drinking, smoking, driving. “Unreasonable” is a subjective trait. And, again, you seem to be assuming that your plan will actually work - that what’s being questioned is whether we should do it, not whether it will actually help out. I question both of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/163 "2010-05-26T12:33:03Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > My point is that, unlike any other religious or cultural affectation, such as wearing a turban, sporting big curly sideburns, wearing a crucifix, etc, the right to the wearing of a face covering, except when legitimately challenged, can be abused to the detriment of society. _Any_ other? There are no religious or cultural affectations other than wearing a face covering that could be abused to the detriment of society? I can think of a few things. Beyond that, if it is “face coverings” that are the problem, why isn’t this a call for banning face coverings? Wouldn’t that - at the very least - appear a lot less to be singling out Muslims? I mean, if the admitted problem is with a general thing (face coverings) and yet the solution applies to only a particular subset of that general thing - a particular subset associated with Muslims - i’m not entirely sure how you can claim that this doesn’t single out Muslims. It very much seems to to my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/164 "2010-05-26T12:34:09Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Hey, on those terms, there’s plenty of things a ban justification could arise for. Drinking, smoking, driving. “Unreasonable” is a subjective trait. Don’t we already have prohibitions on those actions? And when their usage affects other people negatively, they are imposed. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/165 "2010-05-26T12:36:49Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > _Any_ other? There are no religious or cultural affectations other than wearing a face covering that could be abused to the detriment of society? I can think of a few things. When you are ready. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Beyond that, if it is “face coverings” that are the problem, why isn’t this a call for banning face coverings? Wouldn’t that - at the very least - appear a lot less to be singling out Muslims? I mean, if the admitted problem is with a general thing (face coverings) and yet the solution applies to only a particular subset of that general thing - a particular subset associated with Muslims - i’m not entirely sure how you can claim that this doesn’t single out Muslims. It very much seems to to my eyes. Muslims are the only ones who want to wear them where it suits them. We already have restrictions on when non-muslim people can cover their faces. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/166 "2010-05-26T12:51:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not surprising, really. You miss a lot. > > [Yes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Windrush#West_Indian_immigrants), [actually](http://jrs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/1/3-4/214). Sorry, I was aware of the adverts by a labour starved country at the end of a world war (for the London busses as I recall) but that was, (A) Half a century ago (B) Asking for LABOUR from overseas, not saying please come to our country because we want to intergrate your culture with ours. Again sorry, I realise this is a very touchy subject with you, but that doesn’t excuse misinterpreteting your own cites because you are emotionally involved with the subject. The U.K., or as far as I know any other Western nation, (but I’m welcome to be corrected )has ever advertised for immigrants as part of some sort of “cultural cross pollinating programme.” Refering to some posts upthread, I have seen signs outside banks in both the U.K. and the Republic of Ireland saying that there will be no admittance to their premises for people who refuse to take their motorcycle crash helmets off. (For pretty obvious reasons) And once again **REVENANT** , Islam does NOT demand that women wear veils. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/167 "2010-05-26T13:02:08Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Don’t we already have prohibitions on those actions? And when their usage affects other people negatively, they are imposed. Not completely. And the difference here is on one hand imposing prohibitions when the abuse of a right takes place, and on the other imposing prohibitions on _any_ use of a right\* in case\* abuse takes place. Arresting or fining, say, a drunk man whose causing a disturbance is equivalent to arresting or fining a woman actively trying to shoplift using her clothes to hide stuff, not just a woman wearing particular clothes because she might do something. We don’t have a law against being drunk, because being drunk can potentially lead to abuse. > [@](#): > > When you are ready. I think it’s fair to argue drinking and smoking as cultural affectations. There’s the use of church bells or calls to prayer, you might include the use of cultural or religious symbols which could intimidate or upset some, or attempt to proseylatize. You yourself have pointed out that some clothing is better for hiding items than others. We have some culture specific language and physical gestures that may be used to insult or offend. > [@](#): > > Muslims are the only ones who want to wear them where it suits them. We already have restrictions on when non-muslim people can cover their faces. You mean we have restrictions which specifically _exclude_ Muslims? Could you cite some of these restrictions, please? [QUOTE=Lust4Life] And once again REVENANT, Islam does NOT demand that women wear veils. [/QUOTE] Christianity does not demand that Christians take the Eucharist. Doesn’t make the Eucharist unChristian, just means that it’s not a matter of religion for some Christians. Likewise, that for some, or even most, Muslims, the veil is not a religious requirement doesn’t mean that it isn’t for others. And capitals aren’t necessary. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/168 "2010-05-26T13:04:12Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Actually darn near nobody wears it, some Saudis, most Afghanis, a handful of eccentrics elsewhere. It simply is not a big problem. You mean outside of the ME area? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/169 "2010-05-26T13:10:24Z")
giving grace before every meal, the lord’s prayer, hail mary’s, the papacy in general, speaking in tongues, snake handling, and a million other things that are implicitly religious have no textual basis to it either and yet, we all can recognize the theological implications of those things can’t we? if France was to BAN catholicism since its hierarchy is sexist in nature, would you say that it’s an empowerment issue and not a religious issue since in the Bible, nowhere does it say anything about cardinals, priests, or popes? the burqa ban has religious implications to it. even if it doesn’t, it has cultural implications which makes it as prejudice as a ban on bindis. the security argument, to me at least, would be a lot more compelling but they would have to alter the language to say face COVERINGS rather than face VEILS. The refusal to write the law in that language implies racial motivations, no? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/170 "2010-05-26T13:24:45Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > The refusal to write the law in that language implies racial motivations, no? Women aren’t a separate race. And the culture that requires its women to wear a burkha and niqab isn’t one that we should want in the west. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/171 "2010-05-26T13:34:49Z")
Although I broadly agree that burqas stem from an oppressive culture, I can’t see any law regulating women’s clothing and appearance, especially one made by a majority-male legislative body, as anything but regressive and sexist itself. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/172 "2010-05-26T13:35:37Z")
Women in Afghanistan, now freed from their former government’s burqa policy and [making their own choices](http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/05/14/2315258.aspx), can’t understand why Western nations would want to impose one. > [@Kiko Itasaka / NBC](#): > > After a hard day at work, my neighbor usually changes out of her uniform, applies her lipstick, a dab of mascara, and a dusting of eye shadow. > > Then she puts on her powder blue burqa and commutes home. > > When asked why she bothers primping when she is about to completely cover up, she giggled. “I wear the makeup for myself. It makes me feel good.” > > Fatima…wears the burqa outside because it makes her feel more secure. > … > She is very distressed by recent European legislative moves to ban the burqa – a catchall term used to describe the Islamic headdress that wholly or mainly conceals the face. > … > Shukria Barakzai, a prominent and influential member of parliament…hated every moment of the five years she was forced to wear a burqa during the Taliban rule. But, though she does not like what the burqa represents, she also finds recent European legislation efforts reprehensible. > > “Leave women to wear burqa if they want, just as they can wear blue jeans if they want,” said Barakzai. She says she is shocked that democratic nations would pass laws that restrict personal choices. > > “What is the difference between radical Islamic groups and people who make these anti-democratic laws,” she asked. “Democracy means freedom of choice!” ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/173 "2010-05-26T14:12:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You mean outside of the ME area? Well Afghanistan is certainly not in the Middle East. But far fewer than half the women I come across wear a face veil. Maybe a quarter. But that is distorted by the number of non-Islamic women I encounter, and the presumption only the more open women go to shopping malls. But really, how many women in France (Belgium, the USA) are we talking about? A vanishingly small number. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/174 "2010-05-26T14:21:55Z")
In Yemen, a woman without a face veil is the exception. You work in Dammam where it isn’t required by law. In Riyadh from what I hear it is required. I see them regularly in Dubai. I’ve only seen it a few times in Canada, though. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/175 "2010-05-26T15:22:34Z")
Yeah, but… We are really talking about the number of women in France who choose to wear the veil. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/176 "2010-05-26T17:02:10Z")
the original BBC article cites 1900 but i’ve seen figures on the Daily Telegraph that reported upwards to 100,000. One may be strictly burka, and the other facial-veils in general? Either way, out of 53 mil, it’s a relatively small percentage. less than 1 in 500 people. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/177 "2010-05-26T17:10:12Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > the original BBC article cites 1900 but i’ve seen figures on the Daily Telegraph that reported upwards to 100,000. One may be strictly burka, and the other facial-veils in general? Either way, out of 53 mil, it’s a relatively small percentage. less than 1 in 500 people. So, how many do we have to let it get up to before we say “Fuck it, make all the harlots cover themselves up. They are distracting the menfolk from more important things.”? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/178 "2010-05-26T17:49:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > My point is that, unlike any other religious or cultural affectation, such as wearing a turban, sporting big curly sideburns, wearing a crucifix, etc, the right to the wearing of a face covering, except when legitimately challenged, can be abused to the detriment of society. That isn’t a point. It’s a complaint. > [@](#): > > And it is also dehumanising. I invite you to tell a woman who voluntary dons a burqa that she’s less human for it and see what she says. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > Sorry, I was aware of the adverts by a labour starved country at the end of a world war (for the London busses as I recall) but that was, > > (A) Half a century ago > > (B) Asking for LABOUR from overseas, not saying please come to our country because we want to intergrate your culture with ours. That’s how immigration works. You can’t expect people to step off a boat and immediately start thinking Morecambe and Wise are funny or that fried tomatoes are a delicacy. It takes time. If you have a welcoming culture- or are welcoming to members of a specific culture- immigrants will be quickly assimilated and before you know it a few aspects of _their_ culture (vindaloo, dreadlocks, shampoo, the blues) are an integral part of yours, and _they_ all speak your language and wear your clothes and so on. If you have an unwelcoming culture, they all live in ghettoes, get stuck in dead-end jobs (if they’re employed at all) and might not even learn to speak the language. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/179 "2010-05-26T18:16:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I invite you to tell a woman who voluntary dons a burqa that she’s less human for it and see what she says. Emphasis on ‘voluntary’. I’m not concerned about those who voluntarily choose to put the thing on. They can voluntarily take it off anytime. I’m concerned about those who are forcibly made to wear them. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/180 "2010-05-26T18:30:21Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Emphasis on ‘voluntary’. I’m not concerned about those who voluntarily choose to put the thing on. They can voluntarily take it off anytime. I’m concerned about those who are forcibly made to wear them. i think we all are concerned for that woman, but this ban is not going to do jack shit to curb that behavior. and **ivan** , opposing a burqa ban is not the same thing as supporting madatory burqa-wearing. plus, i was merely trying to cite figures. i guess there was some implication that the small percentages made the proactiveness of this ban seem even more ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=10)