# How Do The Plains Indians Explain The Coming of The Horse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 10, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919 "2008-01-10T00:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/21 "2008-01-11T19:39:04Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] I’m not sure that plains Indians would have learned to catch and tame feral horses before they were exposed to the use of domesticated horses, either directly from the Spanish, or from neighboring tribes that had previously acquired them. At least initially, I suspect that the first horses were obtained by either by stealing already tames horses from the Spanish or catching ones that had gone astray. Later on, Indians in more remote areas probably obtained them in similar ways from adjacent groups. [/QUOTE] Pretty good. [American Indian Horse History (1620-1800)](http://www.redoaktree.org/indianhorse/history2.htm) with free [Indian Horse Distribution Map (1600s - 1775)](http://www.thefurtrapper.com/indian_horse.htm#horses). ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/22 "2008-01-11T22:01:38Z")
[QUOTE=Othar the Tooth Collector] Man, that legend really flies in the face of the whole “noble savage” myth that the Indians hunted responsibly and used every part of the animal. The main character goes on an animal killing spree to make more attractive clothing for himself, killing multiple elk just for the teeth (two teeth from each elk, to be used as beads), strangling multiple eagles just for their feathers, killing a coyote to be used as bait to catch the eagles, goats for the tips of their horns, and porcupines for their skins. Nothing is said about how wasteful he is, and he is rewarded by a god for his efforts. [/QUOTE] For what it’s worth, the “Noble Savage” ideology has pretty much been done away with, and is largely perpetuated by ignorant New Agey types. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/23 "2008-01-11T23:57:45Z")
I think it’s important to remember that Native American Indians were not some monolithic group of feather-headdress-wearing, buffalo-hunting, birchback-canoe-making, chief-brave-and-squaw monoculture, but a wide range of variant cultures differing as much as rural Norway, rural Greece, rural Uzbekistan, and rural Vietnam do from each other. That said, I do have one useful thing to contribute: it appears to me from my less than thorough reading about these cultures that at least some, and notably those of the Plains, _used_ myth and story to interpret their history. I’ll submit into evidence a short sentence from a fictional story that attempts to faithfully reproduce a Lakota sweat ceremony. The words are put in the mouth of the young shaman conducting the ceremony, as he introduces a Lakota myth giving context to the ceremony: “Now I don’t know if it happened this way or not, but the story is true.” As I understand that, it does not purport to be a factual account, but a story that conveys an important Truth regardless of its historicity or lack thereof. The author of the fictional work, by the way, is a Tsalagi, and the references he consulted for verisimilitude are noted as an attachment to the chapter: > [@Sequoyah Pendor](#): > > In describing what is going on, I have borrowed freely from four books, “Gift of Power: The Life and Teachings of a Lakota Medicine Man” by Archie Fire Lame Deer and Richard Erdoes; “Mother Earth Spirituality” by Edd McGaa, Eagle Man; “Sweet Medicine” by Peter J. Powell and “Seven Arrows” by Hyemeyohsts Storm. > > Fire Lame Deer, Archie and Richard Erdoes. Gift of Power: The Life and Teachings of a Lakota Medicine Man. Santa Fe: Bear & Company Publishing, 1992. > > McGaa, Edd, Eagle Man. Mother Earth Spirituality: Native American paths to Healing Ourselves and Our World. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1990. > > Powell, Peter J. Sweet Medicine, 2 vol. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1969. > > Storm, Hyemeyohsts. Seven Arrows. New York: Ballantine Books, 1972. Information provided for what it may be worth. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/24 "2008-01-12T01:58:55Z")
[QUOTE=CateAyo] No, as an Indian I must disagree. The customs and attitudes of others are what they are I am sure, but even in the minority of Native American tribes and nations that were patriarchal, women were not considered property to be owned, traded and used for barter. [/QUOTE] Oh, I wasn’t trying to suggest that Indians did barter there daughters. I was merely pointing out that sometimes animals are absolutely essential to survival in some societies and not just a pet plaything and thus that the idea that someone somewhere may value an animal above a family member would not inherently be out of the question. ---
**Author:** ![CateAyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@CateAyo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CateAyo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/25 "2008-01-12T15:24:35Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Oh, I wasn’t trying to suggest that Indians did barter there daughters. I was merely pointing out that sometimes animals are absolutely essential to survival in some societies and not just a pet plaything and thus that the idea that someone somewhere may value an animal above a family member would not inherently be out of the question. [/QUOTE] I misunderstood your post. My apologies. I agree with that there could be instances in which this sort of barter would be the case. I now understand that you were not implicating any specific Native American culture in this. I suppose also that an individual might well do such a barter, but I would suggest that the act reflects on the individual, not on the norms or attitudes of the group. Thank you for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/26 "2008-01-12T16:29:53Z")
[QUOTE=CateAyo] No, as an Indian I must disagree. The customs and attitudes of others are what they are I am sure, but even in the minority of Native American tribes and nations that were patriarchal, women were not considered property to be owned, traded and used for barter. [/QUOTE] Well, _captive_ women were sometimes bartered or sold. A notable example is [Sacagawea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacagawea), who, after being captured by raiding Hidatsas, was sold to French Canadian trader Toussaint Charbonneau. (Or possibly lost to Charbonneau in a wager.) [More on trade of captive women here.](http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/4832/slave.html) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/27 "2008-01-12T16:30:16Z")
My thoughts on this: native American plains indians are nomads. In their travels, the come upon a white trader with two horses. The indians see how the horses can make travel easier, and watch the man. they either buy or steal the horses, and learn to ride. This probably took many years-I would say, propabably not until ca. 1650 or so. So, would the indians have retained any oral history of this? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/28 "2008-01-12T16:35:32Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Not too Many good replies 😕 **adirondack\_mike** gave you a good response in the 10th post. Did you read his link? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/29 "2008-01-12T16:52:33Z")
(Continuing the hijack…) Upon further googling, the custom of [bride price](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price) was not unknown among the Indians. [Here is a detailed primary source account of horses being given to a bride’s family in exchange for the right to marry her.](http://books.google.com/books?id=F_ZCfM4iLqYC&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=indian+women+slaves&source=web&ots=FdvP-EdtJE&sig=vfJ5QKrmAXqrwcs4MGU3HqqpghQ#PPA90,M1) (I would _not_ equate this practice with trading a woman for horses, though.) The account is written by an American officer who had been an Indian fighter, so you may of course question its objectivity. He certainly presents an unromantic view of the lives of at least _some_ Indian women. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/30 "2008-01-13T00:45:21Z")
[QUOTE=CateAyo] I suppose also that an individual might well do such a barter, but I would suggest that the act reflects on the individual, not on the norms or attitudes of the group. [/QUOTE] Well, that goes back to my example of the Vietnamese peasant, although I have not actually heard of any Vietnamese trading family members for water buffalo, which are needed for survival. However, I’m sorry to report there has been a small yet distinct problem in Thailand with some rural families trading their daughters for refrigerators, television sets and other modern conveniences for some time now. I wish I were kidding, but I’m not. They trade them into brothels. The way it usually works is once one family’s daughter is sold for some modern appliance, other families grow envious and start thinking about selling their own daughters, and it sort of snowballs from there. Entire villages may be affected. It’s easy to blame the parents, but when you’re dirt poor and uneducated, and your equally dirt-poor neighbor suddenly has all these shiny brand-new modern miracles, the temptation is quite great. Ironically, this does not involve the sex trade that caters to Westerners, contrary to what some lurid documentaries would have you believe. I’ve never seen a girl in a Western-oriented bar forced to work there. (I don’t go into the Western-oriented brothels since I’ve been married, but I have friends who do, and they report the same.) They’re their own free agents and come and go all the time on their own accord. What the daughters are sold into are the brothels that cater to the local clientele, the low-paid laborers who can only afford a few dollars for a go. These are the places that you read about that chain the girls to the bed, and they have to keep working until she’s paid back whatever was paid to the family. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/31 "2008-01-13T01:04:15Z")
Anyway, about the freakin’ horses; I have it in my mind that some of the original people in Mexico had it in their belief system a prophecy that the white men were to arrive from accross the sea riding on animals. Maybe the myth spread along with the actual beasts. You guys are aware that arranged marriages, in a more subtle form, exist today in the US. Mostly among the elite class. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![adirondack\_mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@adirondack\_mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adirondack_mike)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/32 "2008-01-13T01:19:42Z")
I don’t mean to get back to the pre-hijack stuff - but I will. 🙂 If the native americans did get the horses directly from the Spanish or other white traders then they missed something very important - stirrups. I am not aware that stirrups were known in the New World even as late as the middle 19th century (I could be wrong on this point). The advantage of stirrups in combat is overwhelming. That there were plenty of wild horses in the west today and when Europeans first ventured out west, supports the hypothesis that Plains Indians did not get their horses by trade with Europeans. I am not sure how good the trade contacts were between the mesoamerican Aztecs and the Plains Indians. The mythology appears different. BTW the horse myths cited previously are not very different from other North American Native myths. They are also not that far off from some of the Greek mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919/33 "2008-01-13T02:37:53Z")
[QUOTE=mangeorge] You guys are aware that arranged marriages, in a more subtle form, exist today in the US. Mostly among the elite class. [/QUOTE] Absolutely. Which is why I said I would _not_ equate the practice described in my last post with trading horses for women. Bride price is a custom in many cultures, sometimes in a subtle form, sometimes not so subtle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-plains-indians-explain-the-coming-of-the-horse/432919.md?page=1)