# How do the powers of a duke compare with that of a king or emperor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733 "2014-03-03T04:04:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/21 "2014-03-03T10:13:05Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Not only that but the title is but one thing in the equation. I’m no UK history buff but I recall there were at times noblemen who might have been regarded as of lesser rank (by title) but who were wealthier and had greater land and men at arms at immediate disposal than the monarch. These noblemen would defer to the monarch vociferously - in all matters of form - but the realpolitik was very different. The kingdom of León (previously kingdom of Asturias) ended up being known to the world as the kingdom of Castille: Castille was a _condado_, an “earldom”, but damn it grew up fast! The _condado_ would go back and forth between the surrounding kingdoms (sometimes beholden to Navarre, sometimes to the Caliphate, sometimes to León), eventually became permanently joined to León by marriage, but by then it was so big that the two were treated as equals (kingdom of Castille and León, in alphabetical order) and the former _condado_ ended up taking over the name. Compare to the _condados_ of Catalonia, which also got absorbed into the crown of Aragon by succesive marriages but Aragon kept the name: in this case, the _condados_ were not big enough or strong enough by themselves to be considered equal to the kingdom of Aragon. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/22 "2014-03-03T10:18:58Z")
If anyone has a link to a list of all 300 + duchies and principalities etc, I’d appreciate it. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/23 "2014-03-03T10:21:02Z")
What 300+ and are you interested only in titles linked to land or also in those divorced from it? ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/24 "2014-03-03T11:59:30Z")
It would nice to get a link with a list (with a map if possible) of pre-Bismarckian Germany and its principalities and duchies etc. During the Napoleonic period there were some 300 (+) entities or possibly a lot more that constituted what we now call Germany, and a part of eastern France (Alsace) davidmich ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/25 "2014-03-03T12:12:51Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > [hijack] > … > So: Is the Pope catholic? No, he’s parochial. He only believes in, and represents, a single fraction of a single religion. Isn’t language fun?[/hijack] He still shits in the woods, though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/26 "2014-03-03T12:23:55Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > It would nice to get a link with a list (with a map if possible) of pre-Bismarckian Germany and its principalities and duchies etc. During the Napoleonic period there were some 300 (+) entities or possibly a lot more that constituted what we now call Germany, and a part of eastern France (Alsace) Obviously you can only do this on a point-in-time basis. The Wikipedia article on “history of Germany” has a couple of maps which show the German states at various points in time, but I think for anything comprehensive you’re looking for a historical atlas. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/27 "2014-03-03T12:39:09Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > If anyone has a link to a list of all 300 + duchies and principalities etc, I’d appreciate it. That’s pretty much what the _Almanach de Gotha_ was and is, as the printed volumes have only ever covered those noble families of ducal rank or higher. They now have a [website](http://www.almanachdegotha.org/) and plenty of scanned versions of the older volumes can also be found online. The online listing of the non-sovereign princely and ducal families starts [here](http://www.almanachdegotha.org/id136.html). That they are listed together is signiificant, because, as other have said, you can’t really come up with consistent rules about these things. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/28 "2014-03-03T13:19:48Z")
1806 [Confederation of the Rhine - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_the_Rhine) 1815 [German Confederation - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation) 1867 [North German Confederation - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Confederation) 1871 [German Empire - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire) The Hapsburg territories were even more complicated. [Habsburg monarchy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapsburg_Monarchy) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/29 "2014-03-03T13:27:35Z")
Unless a duke was a sovereign, like the grand duke of Luxembourg, then a duke has no “powers” at all deriving solely from being a duke except what his sovereign chooses to grant him on an individual basis. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/30 "2014-03-03T14:35:35Z")
Thank you all, especially for the very useful links. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/31 "2014-03-03T14:56:47Z")
There’s an aspect of the OP that’s not being answered here. To wit: What are the POWERS of a Duke compared to a King et al. While ‘it varies’ is a default answer in practice there was little difference in terms of control of subjects. A duke could do to his subject pretty much what any feudal lord could do: most anything he wanted. What he couldn’t do was things like make alliances with territories not under his king’s control. Not without going off the reservation (literally, I suppose). The Duke’s power - where there was a king - derived from the monarch. But within his desmense his power was essentially sovereign. No one was going to check on his abusing the peasants and such. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/32 "2014-03-03T15:25:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It depended on the particular kingdom/country, since there was never any universal feudal rank system. Usually, however, a duke (or the equivalent in a non-English system) is the most powerful non-sovereign noble. In the UK, I believe the ranking went (from the bottom) knight, baronet, baron, earl, viscount, duke, king/queen. Precedence is a lot different from the powers of a duke so this is a bit OT, but you’ve put viscount in the wrong place, In the Peerage of England it is: Baron–\>Viscount–\>Earl–\>Marquess–\>Duke A Baronet, holder of a Baronetcy is not considered part of the Peerage of England but it is a hereditary title and they would be considered nobility in common parlance. Baronets are styled Sir and are considered to be the equivalent of “hereditary Knights” which existed on the continent. In England both Marquess and Duke are imported titles, Earls were the major powerbase in pre-Norman England and then for many years it was mostly about the Earls/Barons until some Ducal titles got created here and there. There’s only one title holder in the Peerage of England who is normally styled Marquess–the Marquess of Winchester, as all the other Marquessates in the Peerage of England are held by Dukes who use the higher order title. Scotland has its own peerage with slightly different ranks: Lord of Parliament –\> Viscount –\> Earl –\> Marquess –\> Duke. A Lord of Parliament is just referred to as “Lord Xx” and basically equate to a baron in the other Peerages of the United Kingdom. They were the lowest ranking Lords with seats in Parliament and in Scotland the term Baron had an already established meaning of lower order. After the union there was created a Peerage of Great Britain, later replaced by the Peerage of the United Kingdom, its ranks are the same as the Peerage of England and any titles created after those points are within those peerages and not in the peerage of England or Scotland. Ireland also has its own peerage that continued to have new titles created within it until almost the 20th century. The Republic of Ireland doesn’t do noble titles, but all the Irish peers created throughout history whose titles haven’t gone extinct still exist–and many of them with titles referring to areas of the Republic. Sometimes titles of Irish peers even refer to regions of Great Britain. It all makes sense when you realize Irish peerage was almost mostly filled with English with no connection to Ireland. Irish peerages were given out to reward certain persons but without giving them as much prominence or standing because Irish peers (aside from a limited number known as “representative peers”) could not sit in the British House of Lords. It also thus was a way to ennoble someone who was powerful in the House of Commons without removing them from eligibility to serve in the commons. There’s also precedence within ranks, so not all Dukes are seen as equals, for example. Technically the Duke of Norfolk is the “premier” Duke of England and serves in various honorary functions attached to this (the honorary position of Earl Marshal is always held by the Duke of Norfolk and this means the Duke of Norfolk is involved in various coronation ceremonies by default.) The precedence is based on creation date, and the Duke of Norfolk (peerage of England) created in the 1400s is the oldest extant, non-royal ducal title in any of the peerages of the UK. The only extant older title is Duke of Cornwall, but it is always held by the monarch’s oldest son and heir-apparent (so Prince Charles holds this title currently.) There is a Scottish ducal title that is also older than the Duke of Norfolk, the Duke of Rothesay, but it too is held by the monarch’s oldest son. When in Scotland the Prince of Wales is actually referred to as the Duke of Rothesay and not the Prince of Wales. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/33 "2014-03-03T17:25:21Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Precedence is a lot different from the powers of a duke so this is a bit OT, but you’ve put viscount in the wrong place, > > In the Peerage of England it is: Baron–\>Viscount–\>Earl–\>Marquess–\>Duke Thanks! I hesitated over that because I wasn’t absolutely sure where viscount went. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/34 "2014-03-03T18:22:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Earls were the major powerbase in pre-Norman England and then for many years it was mostly about the Earls/Barons until some Ducal titles got created here and there. It is important to remember that pre-Norman conquest earls were much closer in conception to dukes and were referred to as such in contemporary writing in Latin ( _dux_ ). Generally they had authority over groups of shires. With the Norman conquest ( by an actual sitting duke ) the title was essentially re-cast as an English version of the continental count ( _comes_ ) with nominal ( usually very nominal ) authority over a single shire. This normalized status between continental and island nobility and usually you held one title or the other, but not both. So before he achieved the throne Stephen of Blois was one of the largest landed magnates in England, holding the Honors of Eye, Lancaster and _jure uxoris_ Boulogne. But he wasn’t an earl - instead his comital rank came via the continent where he was Count of Mortain in Normandy ( and again _jure uxoris_ Count of Boulogne ). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/35 "2014-03-03T18:35:01Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > To wit: What are the POWERS of a Duke compared to a King et al. > > While ‘it varies’ is a default answer in practice there was little difference in terms of control of subjects. A duke could do to his subject pretty much what any feudal lord could do: most anything he wanted. > > What he couldn’t do was things like make alliances with territories not under his king’s control. Not without going off the reservation (literally, I suppose). The Duke’s power - where there was a king - derived from the monarch. But within his desmense his power was essentially sovereign. No one was going to check on his abusing the peasants and such. Well, while acknowledging that point in a general way, it should be noted that medieval society was highly legalistic and the enumerated powers of a duke ( when they were enumerated ) were always much less than a king, which were themselves somewhat circumscribed. Kings could and did intervene in duchies on behalf of subjects ( usually lesser nobility, but also complaining civic groups like town councils ) against dukes with perfect legality. The sovereignty of a duke varied quite a bit in time and place, as did independence of action. For example the aforementioned Henry the Lion, duke of Saxony and Bavaria, conducted a quite independent war of conquest against pagans on his eastern borders. Frederick Barbarossa pretty much ignored goings on in that region and gave Henry his lead to self-aggrandize in Saxony in particular because a.) he had bigger fish to fry and b) before 1176 his internal policy was to lean on powerful parties like the Welfs to maintain internal stability. In the HRE in particular there is a steady trend after the Investiture Contest towards increasing sovereignty and independence of action, including foreign entanglements. But it was hardly limited to the Germans as the actions of the dukes of Burgundy during the Hundred Years War show. So, y’know, it varied ;). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/36 "2014-03-03T21:06:36Z")
And, of course, a monarch will usually be a duke as well. Lizzie, for example, is the Duke of Normandy (yes, duke, not duchess; I’m not sure why that one retains the masculine style). ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/37 "2014-03-03T21:19:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And, of course, a monarch will usually be a duke as well. Lizzie, for example, is the Duke of Normandy (yes, duke, not duchess; I’m not sure why that one retains the masculine style). She is also [Duke of Lancaster](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Lancaster). So HRH the Duke of Edinburgh is married to two dukes – the only British person with that status. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/38 "2014-03-03T21:23:17Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > …But we all know the most powerful peer of last century is a Dowager Countess. And don’t you forget it!: [http://www.thecultureconcept.com/circle/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Dowager-Duchess.jpg](http://www.thecultureconcept.com/circle/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Dowager-Duchess.jpg) > [@mbh](#): > > …The Hapsburg territories were even more complicated. > [Habsburg monarchy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapsburg_Monarchy) Wow. I had no idea the Hapsburg territories were part of Steeler Nation! Queen Elizabeth II’s husband and all of her sons except Edward (he’s Earl of Wessex) are royal dukes: [Royal dukedoms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Dukedoms_in_the_United_Kingdom). Prince William, her grandson and the two-steps-removed heir to the throne, was created Duke of Cambridge on his wedding day, and Harry will likely get a ducal title when he ties the knot, too, if he wants it. King George III had 17 children, IIRC, and most if not all of the boys were made dukes while still young. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/39 "2014-03-03T21:24:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And, of course, a monarch will usually be a duke as well. Lizzie, for example, is the Duke of Normandy (yes, duke, not duchess; I’m not sure why that one retains the masculine style). Also Duke of Lancaster and Lord of Mann. I’ve no idea why they use masculine titles, but it’s not unique. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/40 "2014-03-03T23:59:38Z")
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