# How do the powers of a duke compare with that of a king or emperor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733 "2014-03-03T04:04:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/41 "2014-03-04T00:09:03Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > … > [Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Neville,_16th_Earl_of_Warwick)… > > The more you watch period dramas and read up on this stuff - the more I get an appreciation for the fluidity of power and the necessity to form alliances through marriage and what not. > > I think a lot of this stuff is subtle and hard to grasp without a true appreciation for the values and culture of the times… > [@Princhester](#): > > Not only that but the title is but one thing in the equation. I’m no UK history buff but I recall there were at times noblemen who might have been regarded as of lesser rank (by title) but who were wealthier and had greater land and men at arms at immediate disposal than the monarch. These noblemen would defer to the monarch vociferously - in all matters of form - but the realpolitik was very different. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > There’s an aspect of the OP that’s not being answered here. > > To wit: What are the POWERS of a Duke compared to a King et al. > > While ‘it varies’ is a default answer in practice there was little difference in terms of control of subjects. A duke could do to his subject pretty much what any feudal lord could do: most anything he wanted. > > What he couldn’t do was things like make alliances with territories not under his king’s control. Not without going off the reservation (literally, I suppose). The Duke’s power - where there was a king - derived from the monarch. But within his desmense his power was essentially sovereign. No one was going to check on his abusing the peasants and such. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Well, while acknowledging that point in a general way, it should be noted that medieval society was highly legalistic and the enumerated powers of a duke ( when they were enumerated ) were always much less than a king, which were themselves somewhat circumscribed. Kings could and did intervene in duchies on behalf of subjects ( usually lesser nobility, but also complaining civic groups like town councils ) against dukes with perfect legality. > > The sovereignty of a duke varied quite a bit in time and place, as did independence of action. For example the aforementioned Henry the Lion, duke of Saxony and Bavaria, conducted a quite independent war of conquest against pagans on his eastern borders… > > So, y’know, it varied ;). Good points. There were both legal issues of the exact extent of _de jure_ power, and the realities of medieval life where social relationships (who you knew, who your siblings and kids were married to, who you invited and didn’t invite to parties, etc.) largely defined what sort of _de facto_ powers you had and what _de jure_ powers you could actually get away with exercising without winning a complimentary decapitation. Witness European politics today, where monarchs retain a large amount of _de jure_ power but defer to the elected officials (who are, by law, simply advisors) on everything and don’t think of themselves at all. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/42 "2014-03-04T00:31:14Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > There’s an aspect of the OP that’s not being answered here. > > To wit: What are the POWERS of a Duke compared to a King et al. > > While ‘it varies’ is a default answer in practice there was little difference in terms of control of subjects. A duke could do to his subject pretty much what any feudal lord could do: most anything he wanted. I think the correct answer is the one I gave before. A duke has NO powers that are inherent in holding a ducal title. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/43 "2014-03-05T20:59:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In the Peerage of England it is: Baron–\>Viscount–\>Earl–\>Marquess–\>Duke From the top down, there was a mnemonic we learned in (grade?) school: Do Men Ever Visit Boston What the peerage had to do with a trip to New England, and why I remember it, is a mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/44 "2014-03-06T05:16:24Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > There’s an aspect of the OP that’s not being answered here. > > To wit: What are the POWERS of a Duke compared to a King et al. > > While ‘it varies’ is a default answer in practice there was little difference in terms of control of subjects. A duke could do to his subject pretty much what any feudal lord could do: most anything he wanted. > > What he couldn’t do was things like make alliances with territories not under his king’s control. Not without going off the reservation (literally, I suppose). A certain historical Duke of Normandy would beg to differ. The Norman invasion was supported by plenty of foreign troops allied to the Duke of Normandy. “It depends” is really the best answer you’re going to get for the OP’s question. For a long (long) time, French dukes (for example) were pretty much free to ignore the king, they didn’t pay taxes, and they only fought in the king’s wars if they felt like it. Really, how much power a king had over a duke was directly proportional to how much he could enforce, which very frequently was “almost none.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/45 "2014-03-06T15:43:57Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > A certain historical Duke of Normandy would beg to differ. The Norman invasion was supported by plenty of foreign troops allied to the Duke of Normandy… And had the blessing of the Pope: [QQSLOT | Number #1 Game Portal With License](http://www.essentialnormanconquest.com/encyclopedia/banners.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/46 "2014-03-06T17:50:29Z")
The land, troops, money, and fortresses/castles a feudal lord possessed had more to do with his power to defy the king than any title. A strong personality could also be a factor. The [Lords of Coucy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_Coucy) were not Dukes – technically they were “sub-comital,” meaning “not even Counts,” but the economic and military strength of their fief, its strategic position, and [especially its superb fortress](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Coucy), gave them enormous influence. The strong personality and cool judgment of the last Sire de Coucy, [Enguerrand VII](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enguerrand_VII_de_Coucy), won him an Earldom from the King of England and the hand of the King’s favorite daughter – _without_ losing the respect of the French King. He even recused himself from some of the conflicts between the two kings, and he was personally so admired he did not incur any dishonor. Long before that, the might and pride of the Coucy family was reflected in their famous motto: > [@](#): > > _Roi ne suis, ne Prince ne Duc ne Comte aussi; Je suis le sire de Coucy_ > (“I am not a King, nor Prince nor Duke nor Count; I am the Lord of Coucy”) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/47 "2014-03-06T20:19:06Z")
The Duke/Duchess of Luxembourg has pretty much always held more power & land than the Prince of Monaco. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/48 "2014-03-06T20:56:36Z")
Another cool title was “Captal.” An old title from the latin for Chief, or Prime, there were only four of them: the Captals of Trene, Puychagut, Épernon and Buch. The Captal de Buch in particular was very powerful. The term was very old, predating most other medieval terms for nobility. That just screams “Old Money.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/49 "2014-03-07T01:47:31Z")
So captals had plenty of capital, until they were kaput? Capital! ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/50 "2014-03-07T02:06:29Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > “… When you have a powerful enough duke, you could have outright challenges to the king’s power…” > [@MrDibble](#): > > “… to be a duke, you have to have fought your way to being king, been dethroned, then fight your way up to being king again…” Hence the phrase “Put up your Dukes” ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/51 "2014-03-07T06:07:52Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > She is also [Duke of Lancaster](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Lancaster). So HRH the Duke of Edinburgh is married to two dukes – the only British person with that status. Not quite. Based solely on British titles, the wives of the following men also share the status of being married to two dukes: The Prince of Wales. He holds two separate dukedoms: Cornwall (1337 in the peerage of England) and Rothesay (1398 in the peerage of Scotland). His wife: the Duchess of Cornwall (formerly Camilla Parker-Bowles). The Duke of Richmond. He holds \*three \*separate dukedoms: Richmond (1675 in the peerage of England), Lennox (1675 in the peerage of Scotland) and Gordon (1876 in the peerage of the United Kingdom). His wife: Susan Monica Grenville-Grey, the current Duchess of Richmond. The Duke of Argyll. He holds two separate dukedoms, of the same name: Argyll (1701 in the peerage of Scotland) and Argyll (1892 in the peerage of the United Kingdom). His wife: Eleanor Cadbury, Duchess of Argyll. The Duke of Buccleuch. He holds two separate dukedoms: Buccleuch (1663 in the peerage of Scotland) and Queensberry (1863 in the peerage of Scotland). His wife: Lady Elizabeth Marian Frances Kerr, Duchess of Buccleuch. The Duke of Hamilton. He holds two separate dukedoms: Hamilton (1643 in the peerage of Scotland) and Brandon (1711 in the peerage of Great Britain). His wife: Sophie Ann Rutherford, Duchess of Hamilton. And there are probably more if you start counting non-British titles. The Duke of Wellington, for example, holds a Spanish dukedom. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/52 "2014-03-07T07:04:45Z")
But Edinburgh is the only British person who holds the status of (a) having a duchy of his own, plus (b) being married to a person holding two duchies. But I think, strictly speaking, Giles is wrong to say that Edinbugh is married to “two dukes”. There may be two duchies involved, but they are both led by the same person and, however many ways you count her, she’s still just one person. There is only one duke, holding two duchies. And, to pick even more nits, it’s debatable, to put it no higher, whether she is the Duke of Normandy at all. Henry III renounced the title by the Treaty of Paris in 1259, since when the English (and, later, British) monarchs have never claimed or used it. In the Channel Island this is popularly ignored and the Queen is often referred to (or toasted) as “the Duke” but, formally, she is “the Queen in right of Jersey” (or Guernsey, or Sark, as the case may be), and that is how she is referred to, e.g, in the legislation of the Channel Islands. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/53 "2014-03-07T07:48:46Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > And, to pick even more nits, it’s debatable, to put it no higher, whether she is the Duke of Normandy at all. It’s even more debatable whether she’s the Duke of Lancaster. She’s quite capable of holding a French peerage, such as it is, but the monarch can’t actually be a peer of her _own_ realm. It would be like having a drivers license or a passport! This is popularly ignored as well, and IIRC the Queen personally consented to a version of the loyal toast that calls her the Duke of Lancaster. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/54 "2014-03-07T10:23:17Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > And, to pick even more nits, it’s debatable, to put it no higher, whether she is the Duke of Normandy at all. Henry III renounced the title by the Treaty of Paris in 1259, since when the English (and, later, British) monarchs have never claimed or used it. In the Channel Island this is popularly ignored and the Queen is often referred to (or toasted) as “the Duke” but, formally, she is “the Queen in right of Jersey” (or Guernsey, or Sark, as the case may be), and that is how she is referred to, e.g, in the legislation of the Channel Islands. Darn it. I was hoping the Compte de Paris would buy a summer home in the Channel Islands, just to make the tabloids go berserk. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/55 "2014-03-07T16:08:01Z")
‘Duke’ was originally a military title. it comes from Latin ‘dux’, related IIRC to ‘ducere’, to lead (as in, to lead soldiers). The Byzantines had an official called the ‘Grand Duke’ (=‘Megas Doux’) who was in charge of the imperial navy rather than having a territory of his own. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/56 "2014-03-07T16:35:17Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > Not quite. Yes, but Prince Phillip is the only MAN to be married to two dukes! 😉 How long _that_ record stays held, we can only wait and see. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/57 "2014-03-10T20:19:25Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > ‘Duke’ was originally a military title. it comes from Latin ‘dux’, related IIRC to ‘ducere’, to lead (as in, to lead soldiers). > > The Byzantines had an official called the ‘Grand Duke’ (=‘Megas Doux’) who was in charge of the imperial navy rather than having a territory of his own. Megaduke would be an awesome title. So would Supercount or Obergraf. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/58 "2014-03-10T20:22:09Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Megaduke would be an awesome title. Nah. It lends itself far too well to alteration by disgruntled underlings. Not even threats of beheadings could prevent “Megadouche” from spreading far and wide in the ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733/59 "2014-03-12T19:53:30Z")
When I read “Megadouche” it’s in the voice of The Monarch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-powers-of-a-duke-compare-with-that-of-a-king-or-emperor/682733.md?page=2)