# How do theists reconcile disbelief in predestination with an omniscient deity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233 "2011-03-02T17:37:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/1 "2011-03-02T17:37:40Z")
The title pretty much says it all. There is a subset of people who believe that their god is omniscient, omnipotent, omni-etc but also that where they will be spending their afterlife is based upon their beliefs and actions and is unknown until their demise. These two statements seem to be mutually exclusive to me. An all-knowing god knows whether you’re going to spend eternity walking streets of gold or getting buggered by beelzebub and a horde of horny horned demons a thousand years before you were conceived. If he doesn’t know, then omniscience is out the window. Please note that this thread is about beliefs and not the actual existence of deities. Comments about said existence are totally irrelevent and posters entering such are predestined to experience my eternal scorn. Here. I’ll even save you the trouble: [QUOTE=Random Jackass Athiest] There are no gods and without an intelligence to know the future there can be no predestination. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/2 "2011-03-02T17:44:00Z")
I don’t understand the contradiction. Knowing something is going to happen is not the same as making, or willing, it to happen. An omnipotent being can choose not to act. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/3 "2011-03-02T17:49:20Z")
Omniscience implies infinite ability to know the knowable, but until you have made your choice, your action is not knowable. It’s just like omnipotence doesn’t imply the ability to make a beef burrito so hot you can’t eat it; it’s only up to easy stuff like creating a universe _ex nihilo_ or causing a virgin to become pregnant or bringing a dead person back to life. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/4 "2011-03-02T17:55:45Z")
You know if your teenagers drink too much alcohol incredible hangovers will follow. They don’t You don’t stop them so they can lern their lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/5 "2011-03-02T18:11:51Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I don’t understand the contradiction. Knowing something is going to happen is not the same as making, or willing, it to happen. An omnipotent being can choose not to act. Nope. If an omnipotent being knows the future, then he already knows what choices he will make, and is thus _forced_ to make said future choices. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/6 "2011-03-02T18:34:47Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > How do theists reconcile disbelief in predestination with an omniscient deity? Take the deity out of it for a moment and you’d be fine with having a disbelief in predestination, right? You could then make your free-will choices in a godless universe, and wind up rich and fat or poor and thin or whatever – nothing to reconcile, or something to reconcile? So now we send back, um, Marty McFly in his DeLorean, or something. Except this _ **isn’t** _ one of those fun movies where he changes the past; he goes back in time and simply watches the same events play out, with you making those same free-will choices right in front of him. Does that introduce something we need to reconcile, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/7 "2011-03-02T18:52:52Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Take the deity out of it for a moment and you’d be fine with having a disbelief in predestination, right? You could then make your free-will choices in a godless universe, and wind up rich and fat or poor and thin or whatever – nothing to reconcile, or something to reconcile? > > So now we send back, um, Marty McFly in his DeLorean, or something. Except this _ **isn’t** _ one of those fun movies where he changes the past; he goes back in time and simply watches the same events play out, with you making those same free-will choices right in front of him. Does that introduce something we need to reconcile, or not? Yes it does; if the future is undetermined then just going back should be enough to drastically change it (butterfly effect), which means that he shouldn’t have made the choices that sent him back to watch in the first place, which means that the past wouldn’t be perturbed because he didn’t travel back in time, which means that the future where he travels back _should_ occur after all, which means he should be there watching, which means the past will be changed by his presence, which means that the future where he goes back won’t occur, which… **FATAL ERROR IN UNIVERSE.EXE** ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/8 "2011-03-02T18:53:25Z")
Ask me about something that doesn’t exist. “Hey Heyhomie, tell me all about Outer Slombovian Chardonnay, vintage 1994.” I can’t tell you anything about that wine, because it doesn’t exist. Ask an omnipotent God about the future. What’s he going to tell you? There’s nothing for him to tell you - the future doesn’t exist. Saying God doesn’t know what I’m going to do in the next five minutes doesn’t detract from God’s omnipotence; the next five minutes don’t exist, so there’s no reason for God to know what’s going to happen in them. Does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/9 "2011-03-02T19:07:07Z")
Suppose that 2 of us are looking at a math problem. I know the answer. I know the answer that you will arrive at assuming that you solve it correctly. How does my knowledge of your future effect your getting there? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/10 "2011-03-02T19:30:19Z")
Trying to limit God with logic is pointless when logic is a property of the universe and God is not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/11 "2011-03-02T19:40:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Trying to limit God with logic is pointless when logic is a property of the universe and God is not. God is illogical? I’ve been saying that for _years_. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/12 "2011-03-02T19:48:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > God is illogical? > I’ve been saying that for _years_. So have I, but people keep trying to apply logic to religion anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/13 "2011-03-02T20:38:52Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Trying to limit God with logic is pointless when logic is a property of the universe and God is not. Which is the same as saying that you can’t say anything meaningful about God whatsoever. Including what you just said, since it is also a logical argument. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/14 "2011-03-02T20:46:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which is the same as saying that you can’t say anything meaningful about God whatsoever. Including what you just said, since it is also a logical argument. No, it means you can’t say anything rational about God. It is possible to have meaning without being logical. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/15 "2011-03-02T20:50:20Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > No, it means you can’t say anything rational about God. It is possible to have meaning without being logical. No it isn’t. And you are again trying to make a logical argument about something you claim logic doesn’t apply to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/16 "2011-03-02T20:52:31Z")
The most that can be said about God is that purple is flat. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/17 "2011-03-02T20:54:29Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Saying God doesn’t know what I’m going to do in the next five minutes doesn’t detract from God’s omnipotence; the next five minutes don’t exist, so there’s no reason for God to know what’s going to happen in them. > > Does that make sense? He knew Judas was going to betray Christ. He also knew Christ was going to be born. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/18 "2011-03-02T20:57:26Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > He knew Judas was going to betray Christ. He also knew Christ was going to be born. Yup-prophecy certainly kills the idea that God doesn’t know the future…unless he’s a damn good guesser. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/19 "2011-03-02T20:59:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it isn’t. Yes it is. > [@](#): > > And you are again trying to make a logical argument about something you claim logic doesn’t apply to. No, I’m describing a flaw in a logical argument. There is no reason to expect logic to apply to anything outside the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233/20 "2011-03-02T21:04:43Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Yes it is. > > No, I’m describing a flaw in a logical argument. There is no reason to expect logic to apply to anything outside the universe. Where? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-theists-reconcile-disbelief-in-predestination-with-an-omniscient-deity/573233.md?page=2)