# How do they know the colors of black and white films? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 5, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540 "2013-12-05T01:52:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/1 "2013-12-05T01:52:22Z")
Just heard of the upcoming colorized version of the “I love Lucy” Christmas special. I even watched a short clip. What struck me was the vibrant purple of Ethel’s dress. How do they know her dress was purple? Or for that matter, how do they know what any of the colors were? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/2 "2013-12-05T01:56:10Z")
They may still have the dress somewhere. They may have color pictures taken on the set. They may have written words describing the dress. They may have made up the color. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/3 "2013-12-05T02:00:53Z")
There’s also a chance the colors were all a drab mishmash that only looked good together in black & white. For example, until the advent of color film, they used chocolate syrup for fake blood. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/4 "2013-12-05T02:25:40Z")
Mostly, they guess. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/5 "2013-12-05T02:31:11Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > There’s also a chance the colors were all a drab mishmash that only looked good together in black & white. For example, until the advent of color film, they used chocolate syrup for fake blood. George Reeve’s Superman outfit was mud brown and yellow, because that had the closest display values to red and blue on black and white TV. For shows through the early 1970s shot in color, the director would use a filter to view the scene and check lighting and color combinations in neutral tones. More than once on live or hurriedly-shot footage, colors that had high contrast turned to muddy similar grays on B&W. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/6 "2013-12-05T02:32:54Z")
Well, this chap has been colourizing old photographs – which look a trifle like old Edwardian postcards coloured by hand… – and I assumed he made an educated guess. Made easier by the fact that so many of our ancestors opted for a trendy drab black to look hip and goth. Click _Show as list_ to see them on one page. Personally, I prefer the coloured versions, since the limitation to black/white was a factor of the technology’s period. Not that there’s much difference in Poe or Lincoln coloured or not. The latter’s co-killer, Lewis Powell looks very modern though: perhaps he wasn’t as much of a gloomy gus as those two. The Civil Rights March of 1963 actually could be taken for an original coloured image though. **[Mashable](http://mashable.com/2013/11/09/colorized-photos-dana-keller/)** Dana Keller ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/7 "2013-12-05T03:10:44Z")
You really wouldn’t want them to be too accurate. Max Factor (who was a real person before a makeup line) found some really creative makeup colors and techniques to make those people look natural, but in reality, they looked grotesque. [Cosmetics and Skin: Max Factor and Televison](http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/aba/max-and-the-tube.php) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/8 "2013-12-05T03:16:34Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > George Reeve’s Superman outfit was mud brown and yellow, because that had the closest display values to red and blue on black and white TV. > > For shows through the early 1970s shot in color, the director would use a filter to view the scene and check lighting and color combinations in neutral tones. More than once on live or hurriedly-shot footage, colors that had high contrast turned to muddy similar grays on B&W. Another interesting example are the police cars used in old movies and television shows. A real police car might have been black and green. A film crew would use cars painted red and yellow. They avoided public confusion because the cars didn’t look anything like real police cars during the filming. But on black and white film they looked the same as real police cars. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/9 "2013-12-05T03:28:50Z")
If they have the original film, they can know how that particular kind of film (eg: panchromatic, isochromatic, etc.) responds to different colors using skin tones and any “standard” colors such as yellow bananas, green grass, red apples, brass trumpets, etc. as a reference. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/10 "2013-12-05T04:09:44Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > You really wouldn’t want them to be too accurate. Max Factor (who was a real person before a makeup line) found some really creative makeup colors and techniques to make those people look natural, but in reality, they looked grotesque. [Cosmetics and Skin: Max Factor and Televison](http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/aba/max-and-the-tube.php) But they would have been right at home on the [set of the original Addams Family TV show (in color!)](http://i.imgur.com/MIV9yAQ.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/11 "2013-12-05T04:43:40Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > But they would have been right at home on the [set of the original Addams Family TV show (in color!)](http://i.imgur.com/MIV9yAQ.jpg) _twitch_ Oh, weird! That’s just…wrong…so bright! ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/12 "2013-12-05T06:03:02Z")
That looks as if Charles Addams himself designed it! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/13 "2013-12-05T13:18:17Z")
In general, they don’t, and they don’t care. I read a complaint by one Hollywood figure who complained that a dress in a black and white film was incorrectly colored. they knew, because they’d seen the original. They also complained because the colorizing agency claimed to have researched the colors, and had demonstrably got this one wrong. I’ve also read comments that clothes are differently colored in different colorized versions of films like _It’s a Wonderful Life_. In the 1933 _King Kong_, the sailors from the Venture probably wore white shirts. The Turner colorized version has them wearing light blue shirts, undoubtedlty because it’s more interesting and visually striking than white. The colorized version of _She_ has the “magical fire” effects at the end being blue and yellow. Seeing as Magical Fire doesn’t exist, and the special effects footage was originally just black, white, and gray, the colorizers obviously felt free to color it as they saw fit, and as would be most dramastic. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/14 "2013-12-05T14:33:14Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > If they have the original film, they can know how that particular kind of film (eg: panchromatic, isochromatic, etc.) responds to different colors using skin tones and any “standard” colors such as yellow bananas, green grass, red apples, brass trumpets, etc. as a reference. They could, but, of course, you still have to deal with luminance values, and you have the issue of many colors mapping to the same gray value. An easy example is red and green of approximately the same shade. In color, they have great contrast, being complementary colors. Photographed by a panchromatic black and white medium, they might be the exact shade of gray. Put a green or red filter on the camera, though, and then you will have great contrast between the two (as well as shifting the black-and-white values for the rest of the scene.) So it’ll all be a guess, anyway. You might be able to make some deductions based on a reference and based on the spectral sensitivity of your film, but it’s still mostly guesswork. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/15 "2013-12-05T17:52:20Z")
I remember some critic, I think Roger Ebert while still paired with Gene Siskel, commenting on the colorization of a Frank Sinatra (“Old Blue Eyes”) film, in which his eyes weren’t blue. He/they then went on to comment on the idiocy of “Paper Moon” having been colorized when it was deliberately shot in B&W long after color had become standard. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/16 "2013-12-05T19:33:24Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > **[Mashable](http://mashable.com/2013/11/09/colorized-photos-dana-keller/)** Dana Keller Wow, these are really good. I’m ordinarily not impressed by colorization efforts, and much prefer the black and white original. But these were interesting and fairly realistic. Especially the march on Washington. ---
**Author:** ![misling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@misling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misling)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/17 "2013-12-05T19:35:02Z")
The Doctor Who Restoration Society had an episode of Dr Who that was shot in color but the only remaining copy was in black & white. Somehow they used a method of analyzing the waveforms / moire patterns of the shades of black & white on the copy to reproduce exactly the original colors as filmed. Pretty amazing, but it wouldn’t work for something that was originally shot in black & white (at least, I don’t think so). There’s a description of how they did it on their web site, which is dedicated to ‘how to restore old film/video to its original when all you’ve got is bad copies’. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/18 "2013-12-05T19:51:27Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not that there’s much difference in Poe or Lincoln coloured or not. I disagree. Lincoln looks so different in color. Here’s [Charlie Chaplin out of makeup in ‘color.’](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/09/charlie-chapin-winston-churchill-and-albert-einstein-brought-to-life-in-colour-photographs_n_3892713.html) He looks like Gordon Gano. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/19 "2013-12-05T21:16:55Z")
> [@misling](#): > > The Doctor Who Restoration Society I’m guessing they don’t do TARDIS repair? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540/20 "2013-12-06T02:45:02Z")
In the 1938 film \*Jezebel, \*it was important that Bette Davis’ dress looked red. A great deal of work went into choosing the right color . . . which finally turned out to be “bronze.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-they-know-the-colors-of-black-and-white-films/675540.md?page=2)