# How do tonal languages convert to written? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369 "2012-11-08T16:50:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/1 "2012-11-08T16:50:38Z")
In, say, Mandarin Chinese, there are four ways of making meaning from the syllable mah. Depending upon the pitch or intonation, the syllable means four different things. Is there a written character for mah? Or do the concepts expressed verbally by that one syllable have four different written characters? ---
**Author:** ![Rain\_Soaked](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19adc/32.png) [@Rain\_Soaked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rain_Soaked)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/2 "2012-11-08T16:55:32Z")
They have different characters. Think of it like “sheep” and “ship”. To non-english speakers they sound very similar. But to you they mean very different things. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/3 "2012-11-08T17:04:21Z")
There are various methods of writing tonal languages. Chinese uses ideograms, aka Chinese characters. The drawback to that is the character doesn’t necessarily indicate the tone. It is, after all, an ideogram, not a phonograph. There are also other ways of writing Chinese. Pinyin is pretty popular for certain purposes, with a method of indicating tones. There is another method known as Bopomofo or Zhuyin Fuhao. Vietnamese uses a modified version of the Latin alphabet, with special symbols on the vowels to indicate the tone. Navajo also uses a modified version of the Latin alphabet, but with the apostrophe as the tone indicator; the placement of the apostrophe informs the reader which tone to use. Hmong uses the Latin alphabet but six letters are used to indicate the tone of the word; the tone letters are those letters that cannot be the terminal letter of a Hmong syllable. You can check [Omniglot](http://www.omniglot.com) for how the languages are written. [Here](http://wals.info/chapter/13) is a world map of tone languages (you have to click on the “show map” button). ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/4 "2012-11-09T14:48:44Z")
Just remember that even in English, the spelling is only a general guide to pronunciation and there are numerous examples of homonyms (words that sound identical but have different meanings) or homographic heteronyms (words spelled the same but pronounced differently, e.g. lead and lead). So perhaps the four different words pronounced ma could simply appear as is and leave context to disambiguate. English is a living example of the fact that orthography need be only a rough guide to pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/5 "2012-11-09T15:35:53Z")
Pinyin has tone diacritics: ā=high level á=high rising ă=low dipping à=high falling So: mā=mother má=hemp or linen or numb mă=horse mà=scold Also, ma without a tone is used to mark a question. There aren’t many toneless words in Chinese ma? Which seems so odd, because in English rising question inflection would conflict with tone_lessness_? In Hmong, they use a series of silent consonants at the end of a word, a different letter for each of the 8 tones. Since all Hmong syllables are open, they don’t need the consonants for anything else at the syllable coda, which frees up the letters to show tones. For example, the word for woman, _poj niam_, is actually pronounced “po nia,” with tones. In [Zhuang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Zhuang) (a Tai language of southern China, related to Thai and Lao), they used to use glyphs adapted from the numerals from 2 to 6 stuck on the end of a word. But they revised their orthography and now, like in Hmong, use extra consonant letters stuck on the end of a word to show the tones. But the (I guess) most common Zhuang tone, number 1, the rising, isn’t marked; it’s just implied by the absence of an extra letter. You could even say paradoxically that it’s marked by being left unmarked. 😛 > [@](#): > > The sentence _Son mwngz hwnj max gvaq dah_ “Teach you to climb on a horse to cross a river” is often used to help people remember the six tones. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/6 "2012-11-09T15:44:37Z")
> [@](#): > > The sentence _Son mwngz hwnj max gvaq dah_ “Teach you to climb on a horse to cross a river” is often used to help people remember the six tones. Pronounced “Son mwng hwn ma gva da,” with tones. _W_ is a vowel in Zhuang, a vowel sound we don’t have in English, similar to Russian ы or Turkish ı. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/7 "2012-11-09T16:48:45Z")
When I had to learn some Hmong in college, I learned that some syllables ended in nasal consonants. **Johanna** ’s example shows that. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/8 "2012-11-09T21:39:58Z")
Hm? _Poj niam_ is the only Hmong example I gave, and there is no nasal sound in it except the syllable-initial n-. The name Hmong itself is Hmoob, pronounced /hmõ:/ with a high tone and a nasalized vowel. In English, the nasalization of the vowel is alluded to with the spelling “-ng.” When the vowel is written double, that shows it’s nasalized. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/9 "2012-11-10T04:56:27Z")
I was referring to the “Son” mistaking that post’s example for the Hmong example. At any rate, the fact remains that I was taught that in Hmong, some syllables do end in nasal consonants. It’s obviously been some time since I’ve had occasion to actually speak or read the lingo. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/10 "2012-11-10T07:24:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It is, after all, an ideogram, not a phonograph. If each word had to be represented by a [phonograph](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/EdisonPhonograph.jpg/230px-EdisonPhonograph.jpg), writing would be an extremely slow and expensive business. 😃 Yes I know what you mean, and I expect you are technically using the word correctly. I just thought it was funny. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/11 "2012-11-10T09:41:31Z")
The tone of Thai syllables is controlled by consonant class _and_ tone marks. Thus, since there are three consonant classes and five tone mark cases (one case being the absence of any tone mark), a 3x5 matrix mapping \ to one of five tones must be memorized. For example, **ไม่** (no) and **ไหม้** (to burn) are pronounced identically – ‘mai’ with falling tone. In the first example word, the mark that looks like “1” provides the falling tone; in the second word, a silent consonant ( **ห** ) is prefixed just to change the syllable’s class, so a mark that looks like “2” is substituted to get the same falling tone. The 3x5 matrix defining tones _varies among the language/dialects_ related to Central Thai, implying, I think, that there used to be more than five tones, which merged differently in different dialects. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/12 "2012-11-10T10:39:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The 3x5 matrix defining tones _varies among the language/dialects_ related to Central Thai, implying, I think, that there used to be more than five tones, which merged differently in different dialects. Vietnamese’s current writing system is, essentially, a big compromise. Words are spelled with consonants using the southern pronunciation and tone marks with the Northern pronunciation, regardless of how the dialect in use by a particular speaker actually is pronounced. This gives rise to the same actual tone in the Saigon dialect having two different tone marks. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/13 "2012-11-10T12:16:32Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I was referring to the “Son” mistaking that post’s example for the Hmong example. Yes, in that example from Zhuang, the final -n in _son_ is actually a real consonant, because it has the first tone which is not marked. > [@](#): > > At any rate, the fact remains that I was taught that in Hmong, some syllables do end in nasal consonants. It’s obviously been some time since I’ve had occasion to actually speak or read the lingo. According to the Wikipedia article on [Hmong vowel phonology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_language#Vowels), we’re both right. The same phoneme is pronounced either as a nasalized vowel or as a vowel with [ŋ] for a coda. The variance is not phonemic, so one can legitimately use either pronunciation. The time I listened to a Hmong instruction tape, the speakers pronounced it with nasalized vowels. But then the spelling “Hmong” itself supports using the -[ŋ] sound. In either case, Hmoob orthography allows the tone to be shown with a final letter, and the nasal vowel or -[ŋ] shown by doubling the vowel letter, at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/14 "2012-11-10T14:02:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Pronounced “Son mwng hwn ma gva da,” with tones. _W_ is a vowel in Zhuang, a vowel sound we don’t have in English, similar to Russian ы or Turkish ı. Thanks for sharing that. I looked up recordings, and spent a substantial amount of time fascinated by that vowel. It’s like a ‘tr’ from train combined with the ‘ch’ from cheese. Neato! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-tonal-languages-convert-to-written/640369/15 "2012-11-11T04:26:08Z")
> [@Mr.Slant](#): > > Thanks for sharing that. > I looked up recordings, and spent a substantial amount of time fascinated by that vowel. > It’s like a ‘tr’ from train combined with the ‘ch’ from cheese. Neato! The way I learned it was from G. L. Lewis: pronounce the first syllable in “cushion,” but instead of rounding your lips, spread them out flat. You have just pronounced the Turkish word for winter: _kış_.