# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/1 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
> [@Leviticus 15:19-30](#):
>
> And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.
Yesterday, I got up from the library’s comuter, and a man wearing a yarmuke pulled up another chair, pushed the one I as sitting in out of the way, and sat down in the new chair. I try to respect other people’s religions and did not ask him how he knew his chair hadn’t been used by a woman on her period, nor tell him that my last period was September 2005.
But it got me to wondering: How can anyone avoid contact with everything touched by a menstruating women? You could never take a public seat anywhere outside the men’s room! Are rstaurants, sporting events, theatres and subways off-limits?
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/2 "2010-09-22T14:56:20Z")
They carry a couple of turtles with them at all times.
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### Author:  [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/3 "2010-09-22T15:09:51Z")
Can’t they just put a handkerchief down on the chair? I’ve seen older men doing this in various public venues.
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### Author:  [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/4 "2010-09-22T16:07:05Z")
It doesn’t seem like having to take a shower and wash your clothes seems like a terribly onerous task in a modern household. Is “even” just short for “evening”, or does it mean some longer period of time?
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### Author:  [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/5 "2010-09-22T16:44:43Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#):
>
> > [@Leviticus 15:19-30](#):
> >
> > And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.
>
> Yesterday, I got up from the library’s comuter, and a man wearing a yarmuke pulled up another chair, pushed the one I as sitting in out of the way, and sat down in the new chair. I try to respect other people’s religions and did not ask him how he knew his chair hadn’t been used by a woman on her period, nor tell him that my last period was September 2005.
>
> But it got me to wondering: How can anyone avoid contact with everything touched by a menstruating women? You could never take a public seat anywhere outside the men’s room! Are rstaurants, sporting events, theatres and subways off-limits?
You can’t avoid it. Orthodox Jews don’t pay much attention to the ritual purity laws nowadays, because their main relevance has to do with the eating sacrifices and other temple-related stuff. Orthodox women still immerse themselves in a [mikvah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh) after their period so they can sleep with their husbands, but that’s a slightly separate issue.
So I’m not entirely sure why the guy got a new chair.
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### Author:  [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/6 "2010-09-22T16:51:05Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#):
>
> > [@Annie-Xmas](#):
> >
> > Yesterday, I got up from the library’s comuter, and a man wearing a yarmuke pulled up another chair, pushed the one I as sitting in out of the way, and sat down in the new chair. I try to respect other people’s religions and did not ask him how he knew his chair hadn’t been used by a woman on her period, nor tell him that my last period was September 2005.
> >
> > But it got me to wondering: How can anyone avoid contact with everything touched by a menstruating women? You could never take a public seat anywhere outside the men’s room! Are rstaurants, sporting events, theatres and subways off-limits?
>
> You can’t avoid it. Orthodox Jews don’t pay much attention to the ritual purity laws nowadays, because their main relevance has to do with the eating sacrifices and other temple-related stuff. Orthodox women still immerse themselves in a [mikvah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh) after their period so they can sleep with their husbands, but that’s a slightly separate issue.
>
> So I’m not entirely sure why the guy got a new chair.
Dunno about that - my Orthodox friends (newlywed) have two queen-sized beds - hers and theirs. So at the very least, they aren’t literally sleeping together during her cycles.
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### Author:  [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/7 "2010-09-22T16:56:59Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#):
>
> > [@Shmendrik](#):
> >
> > You can’t avoid it. Orthodox Jews don’t pay much attention to the ritual purity laws nowadays, because their main relevance has to do with the eating sacrifices and other temple-related stuff. Orthodox women still immerse themselves in a [mikvah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh) after their period so they can sleep with their husbands, but that’s a slightly separate issue.
> >
> > So I’m not entirely sure why the guy got a new chair.
>
> Dunno about that - my Orthodox friends (newlywed) have two queen-sized beds - hers and theirs. So at the very least, they aren’t literally sleeping together during her cycles.
That’s correct. There are a number of restrictions like that which are meant to prevent couples from having sex with each other when the woman is ritually impure. Sleeping in separate beds is seen as a good way to prevent that from happening.
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### Author:  [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/8 "2010-09-22T17:07:53Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#):
>
> You can’t avoid it. Orthodox Jews don’t pay much attention to the ritual purity laws nowadays.
My understanding is they do pay attention, but mainly in relation to the issue of ritual sexual purity. Incidental touching of potentially menstuating women does not concern them as far as I know.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/9 "2010-09-22T17:09:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> There are a number of restrictions like that which are meant to prevent couples from having sex with each other when the woman is ritually impure. Sleeping in separate beds is seen as a good way to prevent that from happening.
By grown-ups, even?
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### Author:  [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/10 "2010-09-22T17:09:17Z")
I recall (not someplace where I can look it up right now, sorry) that under some circumstances the “impurity” imparted by a menstruating woman expires after a certain amount of time. Specifically, a husband shouldn’t eat from his menstruating wife’s plate immediately after she’s eaten from it. However, he can eat leftovers from her plate several hours after she has finished eating.
Perhaps Orthodox men apply this logic to chairs in public places - it’s not OK to use a chair that has \*just \*been vacated by a woman (because she might be “unclean”), but it’s OK to sit in a chair that \*may have been \*sat in by a woman (even a menstruating woman) several hours ago.
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### Author:  [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/11 "2010-09-22T17:18:42Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#):
>
> So I’m not entirely sure why the guy got a new chair.
I don’t particularly care to sit in a chair which still has another person’s latent body heat in it. So maybe he just wanted a ‘cold’ chair, and it had nothing to do with his religion.
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### Author:  [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/12 "2010-09-22T17:35:39Z")
> [@cwthree](#):
>
> I recall (not someplace where I can look it up right now, sorry) that under some circumstances the “impurity” imparted by a menstruating woman expires after a certain amount of time. Specifically, a husband shouldn’t eat from his menstruating wife’s plate immediately after she’s eaten from it. However, he can eat leftovers from her plate several hours after she has finished eating.
>
> Perhaps Orthodox men apply this logic to chairs in public places - it’s not OK to use a chair that has \*just \*been vacated by a woman (because she might be “unclean”), but it’s OK to sit in a chair that \*may have been \*sat in by a woman (even a menstruating woman) several hours ago.
The laws about sharing food are for the same reason I mentioned above: They are all post-Biblical Rabbinic rules which were enacted expressly to provide a sense of separation between husband and wife. They are not due to ritual purity reasons.
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### Author:  [@please921](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/please921)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/13 "2010-09-22T17:41:37Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#):
>
> > [@Shmendrik](#):
> >
> > So I’m not entirely sure why the guy got a new chair.
>
> I don’t particularly care to sit in a chair which still has another person’s latent body heat in it. So maybe he just wanted a ‘cold’ chair, and it had nothing to do with his religion.
I think you hit the nail on the head. As an Orthodox Jew, I have never heard of a prohibition against sitting in a chair that a woman (menstruating or not) has sat on before you. I have never seen this occur, even in ultra-Orthodox communities.
Even though technically it is allowed, some ultra-Orthodox Jews prefer not to sit next to the strangers of the opposite sex while on public transportation to make sure they don’t touch them accidentally. You weren’t sitting right next to him, however, so the point is moot.
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### Author:  [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/14 "2010-09-22T18:42:17Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#):
>
> Even though technically it is allowed, some ultra-Orthodox Jews prefer not to sit next to the strangers of the opposite sex while on public transportation to make sure they don’t touch them accidentally. You weren’t sitting right next to him, however, so the point is moot.
Which allows me to tell my story without technically hijacking - I was on a flight on a crappy local eastern european airlines (Malev Air, I think) and the plane was really, really cramped and completely sold out. I was in the very last row in an aisle seat and in the middle seat was a male Orthodox jew. In the window seat was another woman. I’m 5’9" and \ pounds so suffice it to say, I am not a pixie and neither was the woman in the window seat. We couldn’t help but touch him with our shoulders. The poor man was so disconcerted that he rocked and prayed during the entire three hour flight. I felt really badly for him but there was no place for me to move to.
ETA - Of course, he could have just been praying because he was afraid of flying and the plane was a piece of crap…
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/15 "2010-09-22T18:49:01Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#):
>
> It doesn’t seem like having to take a shower and wash your clothes seems like a terribly onerous task in a modern household. Is “even” just short for “evening”, or does it mean some longer period of time?
“Evening”, and it is often rendered that way in other translations. You’ll remember, of course, that the Jewish day ends at sunset, so “the evening” is the beginning of the next day - that is, the uncleanness lasts for the remainder of the current day.
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### Author:  [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/16 "2010-09-22T20:25:23Z")
Both of my wive’s sisters are Orthodox as are their husbands and the rest of the extended family. We and her parents are the only pagan Jews. I have been out with them on numerous occassions and while they will actively try not to touch or bump up against women that are not their wives, modern society being what it is, they just deal with it when it happens and don’t freak out about it. I don’t think it matters whether it is a menstrating woman or not. Their wives do use the mikvah when it’s convenient and it’s been that time of the month, but neither one of them sleep in separate beds from their wives, even when they are menstrating.
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### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/17 "2010-09-22T20:33:11Z")
> [@Surly\_Chick](#):
>
> Which allows me to tell my story without technically hijacking - I was on a flight on a crappy local eastern european airlines (Malev Air, I think) and the plane was really, really cramped and completely sold out. I was in the very last row in an aisle seat and in the middle seat was a male Orthodox jew. In the window seat was another woman. I’m 5’9" and \ pounds so suffice it to say, I am not a pixie and neither was the woman in the window seat. We couldn’t help but touch him with our shoulders. The poor man was so disconcerted that he rocked and prayed during the entire three hour flight. I felt really badly for him but there was no place for me to move to.
>
> ETA - Of course, he could have just been praying because he was afraid of flying and the plane was a piece of crap…
If he wasn’t nervous before the flight, he’s just a misogynist. Why on earth would you feel bad for him? I’d have rolled my damn eyes till they fell out of my head at the nonsense.
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### Author:  [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/18 "2010-09-22T21:14:12Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> > [@Surly\_Chick](#):
> >
> > Which allows me to tell my story without technically hijacking - I was on a flight on a crappy local eastern european airlines (Malev Air, I think) and the plane was really, really cramped and completely sold out. I was in the very last row in an aisle seat and in the middle seat was a male Orthodox jew. In the window seat was another woman. I’m 5’9" and \ pounds so suffice it to say, I am not a pixie and neither was the woman in the window seat. We couldn’t help but touch him with our shoulders. The poor man was so disconcerted that he rocked and prayed during the entire three hour flight. I felt really badly for him but there was no place for me to move to.
> >
> > ETA - Of course, he could have just been praying because he was afraid of flying and the plane was a piece of crap…
>
> If he wasn’t nervous before the flight, he’s just a misogynist. Why on earth would you feel bad for him? I’d have rolled my damn eyes till they fell out of my head at the nonsense.
I think it’s likely that he was planning to pray/study for the entire flight, but I agree with **lindsaybluth** that it was quite charitable of you to feel bad for him.
---
### Author:  [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/19 "2010-09-22T22:27:57Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#):
>
> I think it’s likely that he was planning to pray/study for the entire flight, but I agree with **lindsaybluth** that it was quite charitable of you to feel bad for him.
Well, the whole rocking thing got old pretty fast, I must say. But in my line of work I deal with many different cultures and religions and I try to be tolerant of their beliefs. And in my experience, European Orthodox jews tend to be uber Orthodox. I’ve even met some who refused to speak to me and had their wives speak on their behalf. I knew that being tightly sandwiched between two strange women was probably reallly uncomfortable for him. To each their own - who am I to judge?
ETA - and the upside was that he didn’t try to make annoying small talk with me!
---
### Author:  [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/20 "2010-09-23T00:22:26Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> “Evening”, and it is often rendered that way in other translations. You’ll remember, of course, that the Jewish day ends at sunset, so “the evening” is the beginning of the next day - that is, the uncleanness lasts for the remainder of the current day.
Thanks! Is there stuff an Orthodox guy can’t/shouldn’t do while ritually-unclean that makes being unclean a bigger deal than I think it does?
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