# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/201 "2010-10-08T20:16:06Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> > [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
> >
> > The problem with generalizing that rule, though, is that it assumes that men and women should be treated the same way. That works within the dominant US culture, which has that general assumption, but if you’re dealing with somebody from a different culture; an Orthodox Jew, or a traditional Rom, or a devout Muslim, or a traditional Indian, following that rule can still cause offense.
>
> And in our society, we have decided that those rules are retarded and offensive. If they want to subject themselves to them, go for it, but they shouldn’t try to force them on everyone else. Sexual discrimination in the workplace is illegal in this country.
>
> Anyone who doesn’t like it is welcome to move to a country where women are still chattel.
A man extending his unrequested hand to a woman to me seems like the most obvious sign that he disrespects her. In his eyes she is literally unclaimed chattel for the taking of anybody that’s interested. If he respects her he would not dream of doing something that could negatively effect her reputation in either the business or the social world.
---
### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/202 "2010-10-08T20:17:59Z")
And how is that any different if they ask if they can shake your hand? Your answer is still no. The person who’s going to be offended is going to be offended regardless. Ergo, the problem is with the asshole, and not with the offer of a handshake, regardless of how it is made.
Your problem is that you’re confusing correlation with causation.
ETA on seeing the new page:
And it’s so funny that you think that handshakes only have this mysterious message of ownership when offered to women versus men.
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### Author:  [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/203 "2010-10-08T20:25:58Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
> >
> > And in our society, we have decided that those rules are retarded and offensive. If they want to subject themselves to them, go for it, but they shouldn’t try to force them on everyone else. Sexual discrimination in the workplace is illegal in this country.
> >
> > Anyone who doesn’t like it is welcome to move to a country where women are still chattel.
>
> A man extending his unrequested hand to a woman to me seems like the most obvious sign that he disrespects her. In his eyes she is literally unclaimed chattel for the taking of anybody that’s interested. If he respects her he would not dream of doing something that could negatively effect her reputation in either the business or the social world.
That’s just absurd. If a man doesn’t offer to shake my hand but does shake the hands of the men standing around, then I am going to be offended as hell. I am in no way different because of my gender, and there is no excuse to treat someone differently because of their gender. No, US business culture should not bow to your preferences. You don’t care to shake hands then say “I don’t shake hands”, but don’t expect this whole country to change just because your culture says otherwise. Lots of women fought very hard so that I would be treated equally, and there is no way I will let that backslide even the tiniest bit to cater to other cultures.
---
### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/204 "2010-10-08T21:56:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > This is the interesting thing about this argument, though. With handshaking, you don’t actually try to touch the person. I actually agree with ZPG that it’s not appropriate for a man to touch a woman in a business situation. I would not want a colleague to put his arm around me, or pat my shoulder, or that kind of thing, because then I’d have to make a big deal of it to make it not happen. But handshaking isn’t a touch, it’s a gesture, and it’s easy to politely turn it down without having to actually BE TOUCHED.
>
> well, it’s kind of hard to shake somebody’s hand without touching them. Handshaking is a kind of touch that’s endemic in our society so it’s not usually considered touching the way that, say, putting your arm around someone is, but it’s still touching. And you’re right. If somebody holds out their hand to be shaked, you can always not respond, but then your lack of response becomes an issue.
True that you can’t shake hands without touching, but the point is that it takes two to shake hands. If someone puts a hand directly onto me, then I can’t avoid the touch, but if they hold out their hand to me, it’s my choice whether to touch them by extending my hand out as well.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/205 "2010-10-08T21:58:24Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
> >
> > And in our society, we have decided that those rules are retarded and offensive. If they want to subject themselves to them, go for it, but they shouldn’t try to force them on everyone else. Sexual discrimination in the workplace is illegal in this country.
> >
> > Anyone who doesn’t like it is welcome to move to a country where women are still chattel.
>
> A man extending his unrequested hand to a woman to me seems like the most obvious sign that he disrespects her. In his eyes she is literally unclaimed chattel for the taking of anybody that’s interested. If he respects her he would not dream of doing something that could negatively effect her reputation in either the business or the social world.
That POV requires the mindset that a woman can be any kind of chattel…claimed or unclaimed. Most of us women don’t see ourselves that way, and thank god neither do the men in our society.
---
### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/206 "2010-10-08T22:13:00Z")
This thread wins some kind of award for most uses of the word “chattel.” You know how if you say a word often enough, it starts to sound weird and nonsensical?
Chattel. Chattel, chattel chattel.
**Zealot,** we don’t see a man shaking a woman’s hand as claiming chattel any more than you see a man claiming another man as chattel when two businessmen shake hands. The one man is not claimed by the other man. Similarly, the woman is not claimed, either.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/207 "2010-10-08T22:13:06Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> > [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
> >
> > If somebody holds out their hand to be shaked, you can always not respond, but then your lack of response becomes an issue.
>
> **Scenario 1:**
>
> Person A: : proffers a hand to shake:
> Person B: Excuse me, I prefer not to shake hands.
>
> **Scenario 2:**
>
> Person A: Would you shake my hand?
> Person B: Excuse me, I prefer not to shake hands.
>
> Yes, I can see how not shaking someone’s hand is completely different if they proffer it to you versus asking. Oh, wait…
It’s not. It’s equally embarrassing either way, which is why you don’t offer to shake somebody’s hand, either by asking or proffering your hand to shake, if you know that the person you’re talking to won’t want to shake your hand. So, if you’re a woman, and you’re meeting the Satmar Rebbe, you don’t offer him your hand. That’s what we’re talking about here, right? A case when you’re talking to somebody who has some cultural objection to touching a member of the opposite sex.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/208 "2010-10-08T22:20:05Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> True that you can’t shake hands without touching, but the point is that it takes two to shake hands. If someone puts a hand directly onto me, then I can’t avoid the touch, but if they hold out their hand to me, it’s my choice whether to touch them by extending my hand out as well.
Right, but then the whole thing becomes a social faux pas, and the person who holds out his hand is standing there looking like an idiot and the person who doesn’t shake the hand looks antisocial, and standoffish.
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### Author:  [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/209 "2010-10-09T03:04:42Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Actually it could easily go like this.
>
> Asshole proffers hand
> ZPG:I don’t shake hands with men.
> Asshole: What’s the matter you think you’re better then me?
> Bystander 1: Check out the asshole.
> Bystander 2: An outsider, everyone knows ZPG has always been a very respectable woman
> Bystander 1: I’ll get one of my kids to lift his wallet on the way out.
Seriously, _what world do you live in_? Because it’s not any flavor of the modern first world that I’m familiar with.
> [@purplehorseshoe](#):
>
> This thread wins some kind of award for most uses of the word “chattel.” You know how if you say a word often enough, it starts to sound weird and nonsensical?
>
> Chattel. Chattel, chattel chattel.
>
> **Zealot,** we don’t see a man shaking a woman’s hand as claiming chattel any more than you see a man claiming another man as chattel when two businessmen shake hands. The one man is not claimed by the other man. Similarly, the woman is not claimed, either.
\It’s called [semantic satiation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation). I got a seriously bad case of that last weekend at the Albuquerque Balloon fiesta - after a while both “Albuquerque” and “balloon” just became meaningless noises or combinations of letters.
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### Author:  [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/210 "2010-10-09T05:54:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> A man extending his unrequested hand to a woman to me seems like the most obvious sign that he disrespects her.
Well, your people on the other hand (hah) don’t seem to have any problem extending their unrequested hands into purses, pockets to steal wallets 😃
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### Author:  [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/211 "2010-10-09T06:36:41Z")
I never knew that handshakes were so complicated
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/212 "2010-10-09T09:03:05Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > Actually it could easily go like this.
> >
> > Asshole proffers hand
> > ZPG:I don’t shake hands with men.
> > Asshole: What’s the matter you think you’re better then me?
> > Bystander 1: Check out the asshole.
> > Bystander 2: An outsider, everyone knows ZPG has always been a very respectable woman
> > Bystander 1: I’ll get one of my kids to lift his wallet on the way out.
>
> Seriously, _what world do you live in_? Because it’s not any flavor of the modern first world that I’m familiar with.
Actually the Rom [would it be more understandable if I used the perjorative Gypsy?] have a moderately well deserved reputation historically of living by criminal activity [hence the term ‘gypsy cab’ referring to an illegal taxi] so imagine she and 2 other Rom, the other 2 Rom are discussing pickpocketing the rude gajo [nonRom] as a punishment for insinuating that she is available.
Marginalized groups have trouble getting ‘normal’ employment and tend to have to live on the fringes of society, or develop public personas that let them get a job, think crypto-jews in historic Spain, in Nazi Germany, blacks passing as white in the US all are assumed roles to integrate into the majority populations. Many times the only normal profession for Rom were as entertainers [think of the classical image of the gypsy violinist in Hungary, the roaming carnivals, with gypsy fortune tellers and performers] and as prostitutes and thieves when they couldnt get normal short term jobs. Sort of as as self fulfilling destiny, nobody will hire them because they are worried about them stealing, so the only way they can make money is to steal it. \ People hate outsiders. It is ingrained into us, mainly to keep any limited resources for ourselves.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/213 "2010-10-09T20:29:35Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#):
>
> This thread wins some kind of award for most uses of the word “chattel.” You know how if you say a word often enough, it starts to sound weird and nonsensical?
>
> Chattel. Chattel, chattel chattel.
>
> **Zealot,** we don’t see a man shaking a woman’s hand as claiming chattel any more than you see a man claiming another man as chattel when two businessmen shake hands. The one man is not claimed by the other man. Similarly, the woman is not claimed, either.
I see a man sticking out his hand at a woman as a man who assumes it’s his right to expect a woman to touch him. I see a man with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues and no respect for other cultures, in other words a jerk.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/214 "2010-10-09T20:35:38Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > A man extending his unrequested hand to a woman to me seems like the most obvious sign that he disrespects her. In his eyes she is literally unclaimed chattel for the taking of anybody that’s interested. If he respects her he would not dream of doing something that could negatively effect her reputation in either the business or the social world.
>
> That POV requires the mindset that a woman can be any kind of chattel…claimed or unclaimed. Most of us women don’t see ourselves that way, and thank god neither do the men in our society.
The heck it does. It implies that a woman is a free independent individual. Her body belongs to her and her alone, not community property or property of the strongest individual in the room, etc. And once again, if you want to touch someone, you ask permission verbally, so that there can be no confusion about the matter. As for the idea that just sticking out a hand is an acceptable way of asking, my dog does that (okay it’s a paw, bu the principle is the same). I would like to think the men I meet are more intelligent.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/215 "2010-10-09T20:39:32Z")
> [@Khaki\_Campbell](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > A man extending his unrequested hand to a woman to me seems like the most obvious sign that he disrespects her.
>
> Well, your people on the other hand (hah) don’t seem to have any problem extending their unrequested hands into purses, pockets to steal wallets 😃
Some tend to feel like that’s what those individuals deserve for treating others so disrespectfully. Roma are like most people on earth. Treat them fairly and they will treat you fairly. We are not as forgiving as Quakers or the Amish when treated badly however.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/216 "2010-10-09T20:43:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
> >
> > **Scenario 1:**
> >
> > Person A: : proffers a hand to shake:
> > Person B: Excuse me, I prefer not to shake hands.
> >
> > **Scenario 2:**
> >
> > Person A: Would you shake my hand?
> > Person B: Excuse me, I prefer not to shake hands.
> >
> > Yes, I can see how not shaking someone’s hand is completely different if they proffer it to you versus asking. Oh, wait…
>
> It’s not. It’s equally embarrassing either way, which is why you don’t offer to shake somebody’s hand, either by asking or proffering your hand to shake, if you know that the person you’re talking to won’t want to shake your hand. So, if you’re a woman, and you’re meeting the Satmar Rebbe, you don’t offer him your hand. That’s what we’re talking about here, right? A case when you’re talking to somebody who has some cultural objection to touching a member of the opposite sex.
Very much, the initial hijack started when lindsay complained about her boyfriend being rejected on a handshake by the female leader of a Muslim student group. Excuse me, but in this day and age, that sounds more like he was looking to provoke an argument with a Muslim group than anything else.
---
### Author:  [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/217 "2010-10-09T20:45:25Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > That POV requires the mindset that a woman can be any kind of chattel…claimed or unclaimed. Most of us women don’t see ourselves that way, and thank god neither do the men in our society.
>
> The heck it does. It implies that a woman is a free independent individual. Her body belongs to her and her alone, not community property or property of the strongest individual in the room, etc. And once again, if you want to touch someone, you ask permission verbally, so that there can be no confusion about the matter. As for the idea that just sticking out a hand is an acceptable way of asking, my dog does that (okay it’s a paw, bu the principle is the same). I would like to think the men I meet are more intelligent.
How do you know that she is literally unclaimed chattel in his eyes? Do you believe that all men who deny they think of a woman that way when they shake her hand are lying?
Your justification that “It implies that a woman is a free independent individual. Her body belongs to her and her alone, not community property or property of the strongest individual in the room, etc. And once again, if you want to touch someone, you ask permission verbally, so that there can be no confusion about the matter.” is gender neutral. If you are coherent with your justification, you should have as much of a problem with a woman extending her unrequested hand. Do you?
---
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/218 "2010-10-09T22:36:42Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@purplehorseshoe](#):
> >
> > This thread wins some kind of award for most uses of the word “chattel.” You know how if you say a word often enough, it starts to sound weird and nonsensical?
> >
> > Chattel. Chattel, chattel chattel.
> >
> > **Zealot,** we don’t see a man shaking a woman’s hand as claiming chattel any more than you see a man claiming another man as chattel when two businessmen shake hands. The one man is not claimed by the other man. Similarly, the woman is not claimed, either.
>
> I see a man sticking out his hand at a woman as a man who assumes it’s his right to expect a woman to touch him. I see a man with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues and no respect for other cultures, in other words a jerk.
But you’ve said that it’s OK for a woman to offer her hand to a man. She’s claiming the man as chattel. The fact that she thinks she has the right to touch a man disgusts me. I see a woman with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues. In other words, an asshat.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/219 "2010-10-10T02:51:26Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > The heck it does. It implies that a woman is a free independent individual. Her body belongs to her and her alone, not community property or property of the strongest individual in the room, etc. And once again, if you want to touch someone, you ask permission verbally, so that there can be no confusion about the matter. As for the idea that just sticking out a hand is an acceptable way of asking, my dog does that (okay it’s a paw, bu the principle is the same). I would like to think the men I meet are more intelligent.
>
> How do you know that she is literally unclaimed chattel in his eyes? Do you believe that all men who deny they think of a woman that way when they shake her hand are lying?
>
> Your justification that “It implies that a woman is a free independent individual. Her body belongs to her and her alone, not community property or property of the strongest individual in the room, etc. And once again, if you want to touch someone, you ask permission verbally, so that there can be no confusion about the matter.” is gender neutral. If you are coherent with your justification, you should have as much of a problem with a woman extending her unrequested hand. Do you?
To a certain extent yes. In this day and age with so many diverse cultures and religions living and working together, I think it’s rather foolish and rude not to ask that question, “Do you shake hands?” of anyone you meet for the first time (or whom you can’t remember their answer since you saw them last) especially in a business situation where one would assume the most formal manners would be used.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/220 "2010-10-10T03:01:16Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > I see a man sticking out his hand at a woman as a man who assumes it’s his right to expect a woman to touch him. I see a man with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues and no respect for other cultures, in other words a jerk.
>
> But you’ve said that it’s OK for a woman to offer her hand to a man. She’s claiming the man as chattel. The fact that she thinks she has the right to touch a man disgusts me. I see a woman with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues. In other words, an asshat.
I can’t think of a culture yet that has a history of women raping men or of wives killing or beating or divorcing husbands because they appeared to friendly with other women. If that ever occurs you might have a point. As things are the act of iniating physical contact much like that of deciding whether or not to carry a baby to term belongs to the woman as she has a far greater risk in the situation than a man has.
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