# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/221 "2010-10-10T20:31:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@AClockworkMelon](#):
> >
> > But you’ve said that it’s OK for a woman to offer her hand to a man. She’s claiming the man as chattel. The fact that she thinks she has the right to touch a man disgusts me. I see a woman with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues. In other words, an asshat.
>
> I can’t think of a culture yet that has a history of women raping men or of wives killing or beating or divorcing husbands because they appeared to friendly with other women. If that ever occurs you might have a point. As things are the act of iniating physical contact much like that of deciding whether or not to carry a baby to term belongs to the woman as she has a far greater risk in the situation than a man has.
What do rapes, beatings and divorces have to do with handshakes?
Please get back to the matter at hand: Women expecting to be able to touch whichever man they please without first asking if they can ask for a handshake. Just like you said, entitlement issues.
---
### Author:  [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/222 "2010-10-10T20:37:17Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> Please get back to the matter at hand: Women expecting to be able to touch whichever man they please without first asking if they can ask for a handshake. Just like you said, entitlement issues.
I see what you did there.
Also, remember that it’s not just a woman offering her unrequested hand to a man: “I think it’s rather foolish and rude not to ask that question, “Do you shake hands?” of **anyone** you meet for the first time (or whom you can’t remember their answer since you saw them last)”
Bolding mine. So, it’s man on woman, woman on man, man and man and of course, woman on woman.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/223 "2010-10-10T22:07:46Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> What do rapes, beatings and divorces have to do with handshakes? .
Being publically seen shaking hands with a strange man or simply having a strange man extend their hand toward them indicating the man believed a hand shake would occur has resulted in women been beaten and/or divorced in the United States. I could probably find a instance in which a woman has been killed over it, but my google-fu is tired.
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> Please get back to the matter at hand: Women expecting to be able to touch whichever man they please without first asking if they can ask for a handshake. Just like you said, entitlement issues.
The old courtesy rules are what they are. The right of invitating physical touch is reserved to women. If you don’t like them advocate for multicultural manners in which everybody rights and personal space are more protected.
---
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/224 "2010-10-10T22:29:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@AClockworkMelon](#):
> >
> > What do rapes, beatings and divorces have to do with handshakes? .
>
> Being publically seen shaking hands with a strange man or simply having a strange man extend their hand toward them indicating the man believed a hand shake would occur has resulted in women been beaten and/or divorced in the United States.
The fantasy world you live in sounds horrifying.
> [@ZPG](#):
>
> > [@AClockworkMelon](#):
> >
> > Please get back to the matter at hand: Women expecting to be able to touch whichever man they please without first asking if they can ask for a handshake. Just like you said, entitlement issues.
>
> The right of invitating physical touch is reserved to women.
No it’s not. You think it is? Bless your heart. 🙂
> [@ZPG](#):
>
> If you don’t like them advocate for multicultural manners in which everybody rights and personal space are more protected.
I don’t have to. Men and women offering their hands to one another is already the norm in my culture. You’re the one advocating sexism.
Do you have anything new to say?
---
### Author:  [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/225 "2010-10-10T23:46:29Z")
So what’s the list of **ZPG** ’s kooky beliefs up to so far?
1. Infanticide is a good thing.
2. People who adopt children are not parents and actually steal kids from their homes
3. handshake=rape
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/226 "2010-10-11T00:59:18Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> Men and women offering their hands to one another is already the norm in my culture.
Only among those who lack manners. I think it’s rather disgusting how lower-class behavior has been able to infect U.S. society. The WASPs could be snobs, but at least they had taste and actively tried to be polite even if they didn’t like people.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/227 "2010-10-11T01:03:30Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
>
> So what’s the list of **ZPG** ’s kooky beliefs up to so far?
>
> 1. Infanticide is a good thing.
> 2. People who adopt children are not parents and actually steal kids from their homes
> 3. handshake=rape
1). Without adequate access to abortion women have no other choice because of situation 2.).
3). Slowly read my comments outloud and get a friend to explain the bigger words. I never said handshake is rape (though it can be a form of sexual harassment). I will always maintain that any man who tries to force a woman to shake his hand is more likely to be a rapist than one who respects her right to body privacy.
---
### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/228 "2010-10-11T01:07:58Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
>
> So what’s the list of **ZPG** ’s kooky beliefs up to so far?
>
> 1. Infanticide is a good thing.
> 2. People who adopt children are not parents and actually steal kids from their homes
wait, i think i missed these, where are they?
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/229 "2010-10-11T01:26:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Being publically seen shaking hands with a strange man or simply having a strange man extend their hand toward them indicating the man believed a hand shake would occur has resulted in women been beaten and/or divorced in the United States.
[QUOTE=AClockworkMelon:13010341]
The fantasy world you live in sounds horrifying.
[/QUOTE]
Fantasy world? The battered women’s shelter I volunteer recently admitted a woman beaten black and blue because her husband thought a salesman was flirting with her. And yes, him (the male sales clerk) sticking his hand out to the woman was part of it. People should consider how their behavior can effect others.
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> The right of invitating physical touch is reserved to women.
[QUOTE=AClockworkMelon: 13010341]
No it’s not
[/QUOTE]
It damn well should be. No woman is safe or free until men understand that our bodies are not their property. Physical contact requires consent.
If you think having a man extend a hand to you instead of waiting for your permission is good, what next do you plan to let him do to you without your permission. I use to work in a old money law firm, one female senior partner explained that men only started breaking those old social rules because they could not openly insult working women. It was a way of sorting between Our Kind and Not Our Kind and the male executive who jets his hand out at woman employee would fire the junior clerk who tried to do that with his wife or daughter.
---
### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/230 "2010-10-11T01:38:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> one female senior partner explained that men only started breaking those old social rules because they could not openly insult working women.
Well, she was wrong. Male executives starting shaking hands with female executives when female executives started insisting on gender neutral treatment in the workplace.
---
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/231 "2010-10-11T02:24:04Z")
> [@ZPG](#):
>
> [QUOTE=AClockworkMelon: 13010341]
> No it’s not
It damn well should be. No woman is safe or free until men understand that our bodies are not their property. Physical contact requires consent.
[/quote]
Do you read the stuff that you type?
You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you.
This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery.
---
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/232 "2010-10-11T02:25:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@AClockworkMelon](#):
> >
> > Men and women offering their hands to one another is already the norm in my culture.
>
> Only among those who lack manners.
Another swing and a miss.
---
### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/233 "2010-10-11T14:31:35Z")
[Miss Manners on handshaking](http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/article.aspx?cp-documentid=23384356):
> [@](#):
>
> **Dear Miss Manners,**
> I come from a country where shaking hands is not customary during introductions, therefore I have the following question. When a man and a woman are introduced to each other, is there an etiquette rule? Should the man wait for the woman to extend her hand before he shakes it or should the woman wait for the man to extend his hand first?
>
> **Gentle Reader,**
> In social situations, the lady extends her hand first; in business situations, the higher ranking person, male or female, does.
>
> The trouble is that you are unlikely to encounter anyone else who knows this. Such niceties are now known by few, so while Miss Manners hopes you will find it useful to know when to extend your hand, she also recommends shaking any reasonably friendly hand that is extended to you.
I guess she just forgot the part about how a higher-ranking male offering his hand to a lower-ranking female is a rapist.
---
### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/234 "2010-10-11T15:41:41Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#):
>
> \It’s called [semantic satiation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation). I got a seriously bad case of that last weekend at the Albuquerque Balloon fiesta - after a while both “Albuquerque” and “balloon” just became meaningless noises or combinations of letters.
I’ve been away for a couple of days, so I’m playing catchup. **Ninja** , thanks for the most useful and edifying post on this page.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/235 "2010-10-12T18:01:40Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> > [@ZPG](#):
> >
> > It damn well should be. No woman is safe or free until men understand that our bodies are not their property. Physical contact requires consent.
>
> Do you read the stuff that you type?
>
> You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you.
>
> This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery.
The 6,000 or more history of the patriarchy treating women like chattel, the fact that rape in the Western world (outside of prisons) is overwhelmingly men raping women, the fact that in most cases the man has more muscle fibers than the woman and could physically overpower her has to be calculated into the equation.
---
### Author:  [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/236 "2010-10-12T18:50:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Fantasy world? The battered women’s shelter I volunteer recently admitted a woman beaten black and blue because her husband thought a salesman was flirting with her. And yes, him (the male sales clerk) sticking his hand out to the woman was part of it. People should consider how their behavior can effect others.
So in your world the person at fault in this situation is the salesman for trying to shake her hand, not her husband for beating the shit out of her over the imagined intention behind the behavior of a third party?
---
### Author:  [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/237 "2010-10-12T20:52:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Only among those who lack manners. I think it’s rather disgusting how lower-class behavior has been able to infect U.S. society. The WASPs could be snobs, but at least they had taste and actively tried to be polite even if they didn’t like people.
I have dined and worked with a fair share of well-to-do people (some were nouveau riche but not all). The only men (female here) who did not offer me their hands first were those born before the second world war (in which case, I would offer mine). The others treated me no differently than my male bretheren.
BTW, this thread is highly amusing.
---
### Author:  [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/238 "2010-10-12T21:47:03Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
> >
> > So what’s the list of **ZPG** ’s kooky beliefs up to so far?
> >
> > 1. Infanticide is a good thing.
> > 2. People who adopt children are not parents and actually steal kids from their homes
>
> wait, i think i missed these, where are they?
The hilarity and complete round the bend wackiness almost dwarfs that already shown in this thread. Read at your own risk:
[Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=548442&highlight=adoption)
[Of Infanticide and Abortion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546471&highlight=infanticide)
So… that’s the person you’re dealing with here.
---
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/239 "2010-10-12T22:24:39Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@AClockworkMelon](#):
> >
> > Do you read the stuff that you type?
> >
> > You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you.
> >
> > This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery.
>
> The 6,000 or more history of the patriarchy treating women like chattel, the fact that rape in the Western world (outside of prisons) is overwhelmingly men raping women, the fact that in most cases the man has more muscle fibers than the woman and could physically overpower her has to be calculated into the equation.
OK, I’m going to go ahead and just repeat what I said in my previous post.
You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you.
This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/240 "2010-10-12T23:34:35Z")
> [@pbbth](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > Fantasy world? The battered women’s shelter I volunteer recently admitted a woman beaten black and blue because her husband thought a salesman was flirting with her. And yes, him (the male sales clerk) sticking his hand out to the woman was part of it. People should consider how their behavior can effect others.
>
> So in your world the person at fault in this situation is the salesman for trying to shake her hand, not her husband for beating the shit out of her over the imagined intention behind the behavior of a third party?
I think there’s plenty of fault to go around. Most of it on the husband for beating her. However, the salesman could have been more careful. Part of sales is reading people only this case not only did he not make the sale, he committed actions that lead to another person getting hurt. If he had asked four little words (Do you shake hands?), he probably would have guessed from the answer given that this was an instance where his behavior could cause trouble for the woman.
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