# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/241 "2010-10-12T23:38:22Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > > > The 6,000 or more history of the patriarchy treating women like chattel, the fact that rape in the Western world (outside of prisons) is overwhelmingly men raping women, the fact that in most cases the man has more muscle fibers than the woman and could physically overpower her has to be calculated into the equation. > > OK, I’m going to go ahead and just repeat what I said in my previous post. > > You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you. > > This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery. Only if you believe the right to say no is dominating (come to think of it there are probably men who do believe any limitation on their behavior or refusal of access to women is being dominated by feminists). Actually my belief is that in any act of physical contact, the woman’s consent is paramount. Men sticking out their hands at women are trying to pressure women into physical contact. A woman offering her hand to a men is extending to him consent for physical contact. Essentially it’s no different than the rules we follow for sex (i.e., you can stick your penis out or in only if the woman consents) otherwise it’s rude and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/242 "2010-10-12T23:45:11Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > OK, I’m going to go ahead and just repeat what I said in my previous post. > > > > You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you. > > > > This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery. > > Only if you believe the right to say no is dominating (come to think of it there are probably men who do believe any limitation on their behavior or refusal of access to women is being dominated by feminists). Actually my belief is that in any act of physical contact, the woman’s consent is paramount. Men sticking out their hands at women are trying to pressure women into physical contact. A woman offering her hand to a men is extending to him consent for physical contact. Essentially it’s no different than the rules we follow for sex (i.e., you can stick your penis out or in only if the woman consents) otherwise it’s rude and disgusting. I’m insane for thinking that I can perform the same action repeatedly and get a different response: You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you. This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/243 "2010-10-12T23:48:50Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery. In elementary school level logic, if the bully,"Don’t you want to give me your milk money? is it really consent when he steals your money? Of course, not. Likewise if you give another person, even the bully, your milk money because you want them to have milk, it is consent. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/244 "2010-10-12T23:54:47Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I’m insane for thinking that I can perform the same action repeatedly and get a different response: > > You’re saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because we don’t own women. So you’re suggesting that offering a hand to shake is a sign of domination. But you think that women should be free to offer their hands to men. So you’re suggesting that it’s OK for women to dominate men. You say that your body doesn’t belong to men but you seem to think that my body belongs to you. > > This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery. You’re insane because you think male female interactions happen in a vacuum in which history, culture, and social conditions don’t exist. A gentlemen doesn’t stick his hand out to a woman because he believes utterly and without reservation that the right to enchange in physical contact requires a woman’s consent and he respects women enough that he would never try to pressure one into touching him without securing that consent. He can do this by asking if she would like to shake hands or he can wait until she extends her hand. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/245 "2010-10-13T00:19:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > This is elementary school level logic, not rocket surgery. > > In elementary school level logic, if the bully,"Don’t you want to give me your milk money? is it really consent when he steals your money? Of course, not. Likewise if you give another person, even the bully, your milk money because you want them to have milk, it is consent. When I offer you my hand I’m not a bully forcing you to do anything. Even if your bullshit analogy worked I’d like to point out that this means you’re OK with women being bullies but it’s wrong for men to be bullies. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > A gentlemen doesn’t stick his hand out to a woman because he believes utterly and without reservation that the right to enchange in physical contact requires a woman’s consent and he respects women enough that he would never try to pressure one into touching him without securing that consent. He can do this by asking if she would like to shake hands or he can wait until she extends her hand. What you don’t fucking understand is that just by offering your hand you are asking for consent to touch. The idea that it’s OK for a woman to offer her hand but it’s wrong for a man to offer his because women are fragile little flowers who are practically being raped by the experience is misogynistic bullshit. You’re a misogynist. You’re the worst kind of misogynist. You’re a misogynist who hides her misogyny behind stupid, nonsense explanations and “traditional, old-timey politeness”. You’re misogyny with a smile. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/246 "2010-10-13T00:52:24Z")
IMO you folks should be more careful with **ZPG Zealot**. She is already on record as supporting strangulation as a remedy for severe annoyance. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/247 "2010-10-13T01:11:27Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > IMO you folks should be more careful with **ZPG Zealot**. She is already on record as supporting strangulation as a remedy for severe annoyance. Considering she believes that she has a non-mutual right to touch me, I’ll keep that in mind. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/248 "2010-10-13T01:50:38Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > > [@aruvqan](#): > > > > wait, i think i missed these, where are they? > > The hilarity and complete round the bend wackiness almost dwarfs that already shown in this thread. Read at your own risk: > [Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=548442&highlight=adoption) > [Of Infanticide and Abortion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546471&highlight=infanticide) > > So… that’s the person you’re dealing with here. Ah, my bad, I thought they were in this thread and I was just having a seriously blond moment and missing them =) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/249 "2010-10-13T01:54:30Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > > IMO you folks should be more careful with **ZPG Zealot**. She is already on record as supporting strangulation as a remedy for severe annoyance. > > Considering she believes that she has a non-mutual right to touch me, I’ll keep that in mind. It’s tough to strangle without touch. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/250 "2010-10-13T01:56:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > Considering she believes that she has a non-mutual right to touch me, I’ll keep that in mind. > > It’s tough to strangle without touch. I’m aware. That’s why I said that I’ll keep your warning in mind, considering she thinks she has the right to touch me whereas I don’t have the right to touch her. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/251 "2010-10-13T15:35:14Z")
This thread may be the best thing I’ve seen on the SDMB ever. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/252 "2010-10-13T17:16:35Z")
> [@MegaBee](#): > > This thread may be the best thing I’ve seen on the SDMB ever. This OP thanks you from the bottom of her heart. Most of my threads die a quick, painful death. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/253 "2010-10-13T18:20:56Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think there’s plenty of fault to go around. Most of it on the husband for beating her. However, the salesman could have been more careful. Maybe the salesman could just stop talking to women altogether. After all, there are \*bound \*to be some men out there who don’t want anyone talking to their [del]property[/del] wives, and you can’t be too careful! So remember: if you’re in sales, always ask to speak to the man of the house. If there is no husband, perhaps there’s a brother, father, or son! Your culture is disgusting. If you want to live somewhere that it’s forced on everyone else, go pick a Taliban country: they’d probably love you. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/254 "2010-10-13T18:25:54Z")
You had NO idea what you were starting when you asked about Jews, didja Annie? 😃 > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Actually my belief is that in any act of physical contact, the woman’s consent is paramount. Oy. We’re never gonna even come close to approaching gender equality as long as shit like this is floating around. What are we, special? (Note: I am a woman.) Neither gender gets to be “paramount.” That’s what equality is all about, no? > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Men sticking out their hands at women are trying to pressure women into physical contact. A woman offering her hand to a men is extending to him consent for physical contact. Do you honestly not understand how those two sentences DO NOT GO TOGETHER?!? It’s the exact same situation, but one is “pressuring” and one is “offering consent.” And YES, it’s the exact same situation - whether or not one party or the other possesses a penis is irrelevant to a handshake. Let’s try this another way. What if a pre-op transsexual stuck out a hand to you, **Zealot**? What if you could not tell the person’s gender one way or the other? What if their gender is not clearly defined anyway - gray area? What do you do? Do you get insulted, and if not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/255 "2010-10-13T22:11:58Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > You had NO idea what you were starting when you asked about Jews, didja Annie? 😃 > > Oy. We’re never gonna even come close to approaching gender equality as long as shit like this is floating around. What are we, special? > > (Note: I am a woman.) > > Neither gender gets to be “paramount.” That’s what equality is all about, no? Purply, it’s easy. It would be most uncouth for a man to stick out his penis at a woman who doesn’t consent, wouldn’t it? Now, when a man thrusts his hand toward a woman, he’s really sticking out 5 tiny penises at her. FEAR THE PENIS, it has oppressed you for thousands of years! So women need protection from the multitude of penises being thrusted at them everyday. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/256 "2010-10-14T00:18:14Z")
I enjoy a good 5 tiny penis reach around. Otherwise known as a back slap. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/257 "2010-10-14T14:51:21Z")
And remember, if you wave at a female friend on the street, it’s like you just pulled your pants down and jammed your crotch in her face. Five times. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/258 "2010-10-14T15:08:09Z")
All snark aside, I actually would genuinely like to know how \*\*ZPGZ \*\*would handle a proferred hand from someone whose gender is ambiguous. (person with penis sticks out hand to shake) ZPGZ: ohnoes! you might rape me or think I’m your chattel! _glares suspiciously_ (person with no penis sticks out hand to shake) ZPGZ: howdy, nice to meetcha, we are both ladies! _shakes hands_ (person with ??? sticks out hand to shake) ZPGZ: \ ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/259 "2010-10-14T15:14:16Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > All snark aside, I actually would genuinely like to know how \*\*ZPGZ \*\*would handle a proferred hand from someone whose gender is ambiguous. > (person with penis sticks out hand to shake) > ZPGZ: ohnoes! you might rape me or think I’m your chattel! _glares suspiciously_ > > (person with no penis sticks out hand to shake) > ZPGZ: howdy, nice to meetcha, we are both ladies! _shakes hands_ I’m more interested in how her husband would react to each of those scenarios. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/260 "2010-10-14T15:59:59Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > All snark aside, I actually would genuinely like to know how \*\*ZPGZ \*\*would handle a proferred hand from someone whose gender is ambiguous. > (person with penis sticks out hand to shake) > ZPGZ: ohnoes! you might rape me or think I’m your chattel! _glares suspiciously_ > > (person with no penis sticks out hand to shake) > ZPGZ: howdy, nice to meetcha, we are both ladies! _shakes hands_ > > (person with ??? sticks out hand to shake) > ZPGZ: \ Shake their hand, then silently gesture for her friend’s kid to lift the person of ambiguous gender’s wallet. Then she can check the driver’s license to see if she’s been reduced to chattel or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640.md?page=14)