# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/21 "2010-09-23T00:43:53Z")
> [@Surly\_Chick](#):
>
> > [@Shmendrik](#):
> >
> > I think it’s likely that he was planning to pray/study for the entire flight, but I agree with **lindsaybluth** that it was quite charitable of you to feel bad for him.
>
> Well, the whole rocking thing got old pretty fast, I must say. But in my line of work I deal with many different cultures and religions and I try to be tolerant of their beliefs. And in my experience, European Orthodox jews tend to be uber Orthodox. I’ve even met some who refused to speak to me and had their wives speak on their behalf. I knew that being tightly sandwiched between two strange women was probably reallly uncomfortable for him. To each their own - who am I to judge?
This is the dope, you must judge!
No, but seriously, if someone didn’t speak to me because of my gender, I’d tell them to go back into the Dark Ages from whence they came. That shit shouldn’t be tolerated. There’s “religious freedom” and then there’s patently bigoted behavior. My SO once interviewed a leader of a Muslim student organization - he stuck his hand out when they met, just like he always does. She refused. That is _bullshit_.
ETA: I make small-talk just in case the plane goes down. I want them to think of me as nice and saving-worthy.
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### Author:  [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/22 "2010-09-23T02:25:53Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> No, but seriously, if someone didn’t speak to me because of my gender, I’d tell them to go back into the Dark Ages from whence they came. That shit shouldn’t be tolerated. There’s “religious freedom” and then there’s patently bigoted behavior. My SO once interviewed a leader of a Muslim student organization - he stuck his hand out when they met, just like he always does. She refused. That is _bullshit_.
I don’t think either of these came from hatred; it’s about staying chaste and modest when you’re faced with the overwhelming, tempting hotness of the opposite sex.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/23 "2010-09-23T02:27:35Z")
But she doesn’t know WHY the guy was praying – maybe he was claustrophobic? Or maybe he’d be praying anyways. Who knows?
\*\* Tom Tildrum\*\* – huh?
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### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/24 "2010-09-23T02:42:47Z")
> [@coffeecat](#):
>
> I don’t think either of these came from hatred; it’s about staying chaste and modest when you’re faced with the overwhelming, tempting hotness of the opposite sex.
**Surly** can’t keep the boys away! 😉
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/25 "2010-09-23T10:54:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> \*\* Tom Tildrum\*\* – huh?
It’s from the end of the long verse quoted in the OP.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/26 "2010-09-23T13:02:53Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#):
>
> But it got me to wondering: How can anyone avoid contact with everything touched by a menstruating women? You could never take a public seat anywhere outside the men’s room! Are rstaurants, sporting events, theatres and subways off-limits?
In [The Year of Living Biblically: One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible](http://www.amazon.com/Year-Living-Biblically-Literally-Possible/dp/0743291484/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285246819&sr=1-1), A. J. Jacobs buys a folding, three-legged chair that he can easily carry around with him so that he has somewhere to sit on while waiting for the subway and so forth without risking violation of that exact rule. I’m not sure how widespread the practice is even among the ultra-orthodox, though.
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### Author:  [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/27 "2010-09-23T15:33:20Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> > [@coffeecat](#):
> >
> > I don’t think either of these came from hatred; it’s about staying chaste and modest when you’re faced with the overwhelming, tempting hotness of the opposite sex.
>
> **Surly** can’t keep the boys away! 😉
Yep, that’s me. Just a big writhing bundle of overwhelming, tempting hotness…
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### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/28 "2010-09-23T15:50:50Z")
> [@Surly\_Chick](#):
>
> > [@lindsaybluth](#):
> >
> > **Surly** can’t keep the boys away! 😉
>
> Yep, that’s me. Just a big writhing bundle of overwhelming, tempting hotness…
That’s one helluva custom title/post combo there. 😉
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### Author:  [@pudytat72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pudytat72)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/29 "2010-09-23T16:40:13Z")
[/QUOTE]
Yesterday, I got up from the library’s comuter, and a man wearing a yarmuke pulled up another chair, pushed the one I as sitting in out of the way, and sat down in the new chair. I try to respect other people’s religions and did not ask him how he knew his chair hadn’t been used by a woman on her period, nor tell him that my last period was September 2005.
But it got me to wondering: How can anyone avoid contact with everything touched by a menstruating women? You could never take a public seat anywhere outside the men’s room! Are rstaurants, sporting events, theatres and subways off-limits?
[/QUOTE]
I went to a small Presbyterian college. Even into the late 1960’s, there was a rule in the library that a man had to wait 5 minutes before he could sit in a chair that a woman had been sitting in. Supposedly to allow the chair to “cool off” so he would not become aroused by the fact that it was warm from her body heat.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/30 "2010-09-23T17:48:02Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> This is the dope, you must judge!
>
> No, but seriously, if someone didn’t speak to me because of my gender, I’d tell them to go back into the Dark Ages from whence they came. That shit shouldn’t be tolerated. There’s “religious freedom” and then there’s patently bigoted behavior. My SO once interviewed a leader of a Muslim student organization - he stuck his hand out when they met, just like he always does. She refused. That is _bullshit_.
>
> ETA: I make small-talk just in case the plane goes down. I want them to think of me as nice and saving-worthy.
Actually, your SO was being an incredibly rude jerk. A man NEVER offers his hand first to a woman. It’s just not acceptable behavior.
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### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/31 "2010-09-23T17:51:55Z")
Am I being wooshed here? Since when is offering to shake hands socially unacceptable?
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/32 "2010-09-23T18:00:53Z")
Every etiquette manual I have ever read is fairly clear on the matter. Men should always wait for a woman to initiate a hand shake. Some cultures do not permit physical contact between unmarried people and a gentlemen should not put a woman in a position where she has to compromise her morals or create an awkward situation.
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### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/33 "2010-09-23T18:01:17Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#):
>
> Incidental touching of potentially menstuating women does not concern them as far as I know.
Apparently [Matisyahu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matisyahu) won’t touch (e.g., shake hands with) female fans ([cite](http://www.edwindecker.com/2007/01/03/just-another-yahumatisyahu-insults-women/)). Whether that’s \*just \*because they’re not related to him or \*also \*because they’re potentially menstruating, I dunno.
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### Author:  [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/34 "2010-09-23T18:54:01Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> > [@Hello\_Again](#):
> >
> > Incidental touching of potentially menstuating women does not concern them as far as I know.
>
> Apparently [Matisyahu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matisyahu) won’t touch (e.g., shake hands with) female fans ([cite](http://www.edwindecker.com/2007/01/03/just-another-yahumatisyahu-insults-women/)). Whether that’s \*just \*because they’re not related to him or \*also \*because they’re potentially menstruating, I dunno.
It’s called being shomer negiah. You do not touch someone of the opposite sex that you are not married to. Many Orthodox Jews both male and female follow this. I don’t think it has anything to do with menstruation, but more modesty.
I read A.J. Jacob’s “A Year of Living Biblically.” It was basically what Judaism would be without the Talmud and the rabbis: just read the Torah for yourself and do whatever you think it means. I liked his job of “stoning adulterers” by dropping pebbles on everyone’s feet (and then apologizing and running away).
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### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/35 "2010-09-23T18:56:06Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Every etiquette manual I have ever read is fairly clear on the matter. Men should always wait for a woman to initiate a hand shake. Some cultures do not permit physical contact between unmarried people and a gentlemen should not put a woman in a position where she has to compromise her morals or create an awkward situation.
I’ve never heard this, and if in a business setting, I would be offended if men were offered a handshake, but I wasn’t. I’d rather be treated as an equal, etiquette manual be damned.
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### Author:  [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/36 "2010-09-23T19:24:07Z")
> [@chizzuk](#):
>
> I liked his job of “stoning adulterers” by dropping pebbles on everyone’s feet (and then apologizing and running away).
That’s genius.
> [@fluiddruid](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > Every etiquette manual I have ever read is fairly clear on the matter. Men should always wait for a woman to initiate a hand shake. Some cultures do not permit physical contact between unmarried people and a gentlemen should not put a woman in a position where she has to compromise her morals or create an awkward situation.
>
> I’ve never heard this, and if in a business setting, I would be offended if men were offered a handshake, but I wasn’t. I’d rather be treated as an equal, etiquette manual be damned.
My grandmother, who is 83, told me when I was little that a man waits for the woman to extend a hand before shaking because it is the polite thing to do. She never said why. Her explanation for such social behaviours was always because “it was the polite thing to do”. Now that particular situation has never happened to me but I wouldn’t mind it because I don’t like shaking peoples hands because they probably just farted on it right before they offered it to me. Or is it just me who does that?
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### Author:  [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/37 "2010-09-23T19:38:40Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#):
>
> I’ve never heard this, and if in a business setting, I would be offended if men were offered a handshake, but I wasn’t. I’d rather be treated as an equal, etiquette manual be damned.
Sorry to stray off topic, but the \*woman offers to shake hands first \*is a social rule only. In business, the _senior person offers to shake first_. Failure to shake hands requires an apology, but not an explanation. [Cite: Miss Manners](http://books.google.com/books?id=FOodocaTLsMC&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=miss+manners+shake+hands+business&source=bl&ots=QfB1OdOkT0&sig=3g9yQNx-DrPZBJ6_KX1a7NkIrVs&hl=en&ei=t6ubTOT8GYOdlgfu_eSuCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=miss%20manners%20shake%20hands%20business&f=false)
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/38 "2010-09-23T20:05:56Z")
> [@Tahssa](#):
>
> > [@chizzuk](#):
> >
> > I liked his job of “stoning adulterers” by dropping pebbles on everyone’s feet (and then apologizing and running away).
>
> That’s genius.
>
> > [@fluiddruid](#):
> >
> > I’ve never heard this, and if in a business setting, I would be offended if men were offered a handshake, but I wasn’t. I’d rather be treated as an equal, etiquette manual be damned.
>
> My grandmother, who is 83, told me when I was little that a man waits for the woman to extend a hand before shaking because it is the polite thing to do. She never said why. Her explanation for such social behaviours was always because “it was the polite thing to do”. Now that particular situation has never happened to me but I wouldn’t mind it because I don’t like shaking peoples hands because they probably just farted on it right before they offered it to me. Or is it just me who does that?
When my grandmother taught me, it was the polite thing to do because the woman may come from a religion or culture where unmarried people of the opposite gender don’t have physical contact and it would be rude to try to force her do what she considers immoral or more importantly any time physical contact between the opposite genders occurs, a gentleman secures the woman’s free consent before doing anything. Basically, he shouldn’t try to compel her to touch his hand anymore than he should try to compel her to touch his penis.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/39 "2010-09-23T20:15:46Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > Every etiquette manual I have ever read is fairly clear on the matter. Men should always wait for a woman to initiate a hand shake. Some cultures do not permit physical contact between unmarried people and a gentlemen should not put a woman in a position where she has to compromise her morals or create an awkward situation.
>
> I’ve never heard this, and if in a business setting, I would be offended if men were offered a handshake, but I wasn’t. I’d rather be treated as an equal, etiquette manual be damned.
I don’t think offering a hand to a woman is about treating her as an equal, its about forcing her to submit to being touched. It’s a useful character test actually. I’ve dealt with some less than conventional individuals in my life including smugglers and coyotes and the like. One thing I’ve noticed rumors of rapes and sexual violence always surface about the ones that stick out their hands automatically to women versus the men who wait for a women to offer contact.
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### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/40 "2010-09-23T21:01:04Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> I don’t think offering a hand to a woman is about treating her as an equal, its about forcing her to submit to being touched. It’s a useful character test actually. I’ve dealt with some less than conventional individuals in my life including smugglers and coyotes and the like. One thing I’ve noticed rumors of rapes and sexual violence always surface about the ones that stick out their hands automatically to women versus the men who wait for a women to offer contact.
Oh no, I have to \*submit \*to being \*touched \*by a _man_. Now no one will \*marry \*me because I’m such a \*harlot \*I shook hands at a _business meeting_.
If a guy shakes everybody else’s hand but not mine, I’m not going to think, “What a nice non-rapist.” I’m going to think, “What a sexist douchebarge.”
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