# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/61 "2010-09-24T16:29:36Z")
Well, I don’t know. You might think I’m a slut.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/62 "2010-09-24T17:53:54Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > No, I don’t shake hands with men because it’s against my personal moral code to touch a man other than a husband or close relative.
>
> This is fine. No problems here. To each their own, and all that. \*\*Sarahfeena \*\*expressed it perfectly.
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > I have observed however that men who insist on trying to get women to shake their hands often have boundary issues and that it can be the first clue that a man is a sexual predator if he places his own personal need to have his hand touched (why hand touching is so important is completely bizarre to me) over the women’s right to body integrity. Quite honestly why is that such a mystery to you?
>
> THIS is the part we all have a problem with. This is NOT fine. The two parts of your statement are completely unrelated to each other. Why is that such a mystery to you?
>
> Most of us gals here see things like **Anaamika** , not like you. Your views are … alien to me.
>
> - sticks out hand for \*\*Clockwork \*\*to shake \*
Don’t you look for character clues in human behavior? Not doing that is . . . alien to me. Trying to force a woman to touch your hand is NOT fine. It is brutish behavior that should be condemned.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/63 "2010-09-24T18:03:11Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> > [@Anaamika](#):
> >
> > I’ll shake AClockworkMelon’s hand. 😉
> >
> > Seriously, god almighty, I’m rather happy we’ve come to a time that women can shake hands just like men. Please don’t withhold a handshake because I am a frail dainty woman! If a woman is going to live in this world she is going to have to stand up and learn how to gently refuse a handshake if it is part of her religion. And on the contrary, I’ve found men who shake women’s hands without hesitation tend to be more respectful of women, and more inclined to treat them with respect.
> >
> > I’ll look a man in the eyes and shake his hand firmly any day.
>
> Amen. It IS true that there is an (outdated) rule of etiquette that men are not supposed to offer their hands to a lady first. But that was a social rule…women are in business now, on equal footing with men, and the rules have evolved accordingly.
>
> Of course, if anyone, male or female, cannot shake hands for whatever reason, it’s their job to politely decline, without making the other person feel as though they had done something wrong. And it’s the offeree’s job to take that in stride, not be offended, and not insist upon it.
Actually, if the offeree just kepts their hands to themselves or asks if shaking hands is appropriate, no gets offended or embarassed. It’s much easier that way and avoid conflict. Where as the offer, no I can’t it’s against my religion, etc., easily leads to more conflict.
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### Author:  [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/64 "2010-09-24T18:58:17Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Actually, if the offeree just kepts their hands to themselves or asks if shaking hands is appropriate, no gets offended or embarassed. It’s much easier that way and avoid conflict. Where as the offer, no I can’t it’s against my religion, etc., easily leads to more conflict.
Then don’t cite religion. When I do not wish to shake hands with someone, I just join my hands in front of me and bow slightly while saying “please excuse me for not shaking hands” and going straight to the conventional “it’s nice to meet you”. I’ve never gotten flack from anyone, and I don’t care if they think I’m a gramophone, have arthritis or religious convections.
Just out of curiosity, ZPG Zealot, what line of work are you in that you seem to deal with such unsavory characters?
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/65 "2010-09-24T19:45:52Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > Amen. It IS true that there is an (outdated) rule of etiquette that men are not supposed to offer their hands to a lady first. But that was a social rule…women are in business now, on equal footing with men, and the rules have evolved accordingly.
> >
> > Of course, if anyone, male or female, cannot shake hands for whatever reason, it’s their job to politely decline, without making the other person feel as though they had done something wrong. And it’s the offeree’s job to take that in stride, not be offended, and not insist upon it.
>
> Actually, if the offeree just kepts their hands to themselves or asks if shaking hands is appropriate, no gets offended or embarassed. It’s much easier that way and avoid conflict. Where as the offer, no I can’t it’s against my religion, etc., easily leads to more conflict.
Except that in this culture, shaking hands IS appropriate. It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society. I’ve known people who wouldn’t shake hands for various reasons. They are polite and just decline, and no one gives them any trouble about it.
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### Author:  [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/66 "2010-09-24T20:01:19Z")
OK, but I think ZPG’s point is -
IF a woman declines, for whatever reason (religious, cultural, whimsical, whatever), or obviously seems uncomfortable with shaking hands, THEN, IF the guy persists in trying to do so, he’s not respecting her boundaries and is 1) an ass and 2) someone who should be watched carefully, because not-respecting-boundaries is a red flag for all sorts of troublesome attitudes.
Really, it does make sense in that situation. It’s basic Gift of Fear stuff.
The problem is that ZPG didn’t phrase it well in her first post, plus to most of us shaking hands is such an automatic thing and a sign of respect that it’s hard to immediately imagine someone feeling uncomfortable thereby.
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### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/67 "2010-09-24T20:07:36Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > Actually, if the offeree just kepts their hands to themselves or asks if shaking hands is appropriate, no gets offended or embarassed. It’s much easier that way and avoid conflict. Where as the offer, no I can’t it’s against my religion, etc., easily leads to more conflict.
>
> Then don’t cite religion. When I do not wish to shake hands with someone, I just join my hands in front of me and bow slightly while saying “please excuse me for not shaking hands” and going straight to the conventional “it’s nice to meet you”. I’ve never gotten flack from anyone, and I don’t care if they think I’m a **gramophone** , have arthritis or religious convections.
> Just out of curiosity, ZPG Zealot, what line of work are you in that you seem to deal with such unsavory characters?
You mean … germophobe? 😉
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### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/68 "2010-09-24T20:12:52Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#):
>
> OK, but I think ZPG’s point is -
>
> IF a woman declines, for whatever reason (religious, cultural, whimsical, whatever), or obviously seems uncomfortable with shaking hands, THEN, IF the guy persists in trying to do so, he’s not respecting her boundaries and is 1) an ass and 2) someone who should be watched carefully, because not-respecting-boundaries is a red flag for all sorts of troublesome attitudes.
>
> Really, it does make sense in that situation. It’s basic Gift of Fear stuff.
>
> The problem is that ZPG didn’t phrase it well in her first post, plus to most of us shaking hands is such an automatic thing and a sign of respect that it’s hard to immediately imagine someone feeling uncomfortable thereby.
This sounds utterly reasonable.
How did you get such a rational interpretation out of all that crazy? (Calling someone “an incredibly rude jerk” for offering to shake hands … bringing rape into a conversation about business ettiquette … drawing an analogy between shaking hands and touching a penis …)
I don’t get it - how’d you do that?
---
### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/69 "2010-09-24T20:26:56Z")
In her first post, she called a man a rude jerk for holding out his hand to be shaken. Which is a bit of an overreaction. Being offended that the person couldn’t shake his hand is not reasonable, IMO, but he’s not a rude jerk for offering.
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### Author:  [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/70 "2010-09-24T20:43:30Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#):
>
> You mean … germophobe? 😉
:o Whoops, sorry. I’m on a strange computer who’s owner must have the auto-correct on. I should have used molysmophobic. It would have been corrector.🆒
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### Author:  [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/71 "2010-09-24T20:56:32Z")
Hmm, I’ve thought about this some years after it happened, and the subject seems appropriate. I worked for an Orthodox man for a couple of years. He didn’t shake hands, of course, and we regularly swapped chairs so that didn’t seem to be an issue. I always thought the not shaking hands was just a part of a bigger rule of no touching between unmarried men and women in general. But this one time…
He had neck problems. I was aware of his frequent chiropractor visits to help with it. One day he was having a problem and asked me to try to therapeutically rub his neck to alleviate some pain. I have no idea how to do this, but tried nonetheless - I needed to use my knuckles to help the vertebrae “adjust” I guess. Anyway, I kind of felt dirty the whole time, because I was touching him, and I thought that was against the rules. Maybe because it was a mitigating circumstance? He really was uncomfortable and what I did seemed to help a little. Or it mattered less because I’m not Jewish?
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### Author:  [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/72 "2010-09-24T20:58:03Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#):
>
> > [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#):
> >
> > OK, but I think ZPG’s point is -
> >
> > IF a woman declines, for whatever reason (religious, cultural, whimsical, whatever), or obviously seems uncomfortable with shaking hands, THEN, IF the guy persists in trying to do so, he’s not respecting her boundaries and is 1) an ass and 2) someone who should be watched carefully, because not-respecting-boundaries is a red flag for all sorts of troublesome attitudes.
> >
> > Really, it does make sense in that situation. It’s basic Gift of Fear stuff.
> >
> > The problem is that ZPG didn’t phrase it well in her first post, plus to most of us shaking hands is such an automatic thing and a sign of respect that it’s hard to immediately imagine someone feeling uncomfortable thereby.
>
> This sounds utterly reasonable.
>
> How did you get such a rational interpretation out of all that crazy? (Calling someone “an incredibly rude jerk” for offering to shake hands … bringing rape into a conversation about business ettiquette … drawing an analogy between shaking hands and touching a penis …)
>
> I don’t get it - how’d you do that?
I dunno. It seemed obvious to me.
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### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/73 "2010-09-24T22:06:22Z")
(was making a point about teh crazy)
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/74 "2010-09-24T22:23:33Z")
**Anaamika** and **purplehorseshoe** won’t be rejoining the discussion unless they find a signal from my basement.
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> I have observed however that men who insist on trying to get women to shake their hands often have boundary issues and that it can be the first clue that a man is a sexual predator if he places his own personal need to have his hand touched (why hand touching is so important is completely bizarre to me) over the women’s right to body integrity. Quite honestly why is that such a mystery to you?
If I offer my hand to you am I insisting on trying to get you to shake my hand?
It just so happens that not shaking people’s hands is something that I do when I’m out sometimes (along with saying “Good name!” to every guy who tells me his name). I’ve never had a single person “insist” on shaking my hand. Is the mere attempt “insisting”?
---
### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/75 "2010-09-24T23:02:04Z")
Sorry, but if someone refuses a handshake for any other reason than health (they have an autoimmune disorder or have huge open sores) or genuine discomfort (you’re in a dark alley at 3am) then they’re full of shit. I don’t care if it’s cultural or religious. It’s bullshit, and it fundamentally means that I am beneath you. Since when is wanting a secularized society a bad thing?
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> Except that in this culture, shaking hands IS appropriate. **It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society.** I’ve known people who wouldn’t shake hands for various reasons. They are polite and just decline, and no one gives them any trouble about it.
Bolding mine. You wanna be the crazy? Fine. I hope it hinders you in your job. You don’t get to decide what’s appropriate for wider society.
---
### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/76 "2010-09-24T23:18:55Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> Sorry, but if someone refuses a handshake for any other reason than health (they have an autoimmune disorder or have huge open sores) or genuine discomfort (you’re in a dark alley at 3am) then they’re full of shit. I don’t care if it’s cultural or religious. It’s bullshit, and it fundamentally means that I am beneath you. Since when is wanting a secularized society a bad thing?
Society isn’t secularized. Our government is, but we all have a right to our own culture within our society. But either which way, everyone has the right to do what they feel comfortable with, and if you don’t like it, that’s actually pretty rude on your part. And it doesn’t actually mean at all that you are beneath anyone, it’s a modesty rule for some people.
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > Except that in this culture, shaking hands IS appropriate. **It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society.** I’ve known people who wouldn’t shake hands for various reasons. They are polite and just decline, and no one gives them any trouble about it.
>
> Bolding mine. You wanna be the crazy? Fine. I hope it hinders you in your job. You don’t get to decide what’s appropriate for wider society.
Uh, that’s what I said.
---
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/77 "2010-09-24T23:27:14Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > **It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society.**
>
> Bolding mine. You wanna be the crazy? Fine. I hope it hinders you in your job. You don’t get to decide what’s appropriate for wider society.
He doesn’t get to decide what’s appropriate within wider society.
---
### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/78 "2010-09-24T23:28:34Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> > [@lindsaybluth](#):
> >
> > Sorry, but if someone refuses a handshake for any other reason than health (they have an autoimmune disorder or have huge open sores) or genuine discomfort (you’re in a dark alley at 3am) then they’re full of shit. I don’t care if it’s cultural or religious. It’s bullshit, and it fundamentally means that I am beneath you. Since when is wanting a secularized society a bad thing?
>
> Society isn’t secularized. Our government is, but we all have a right to our own culture within our society. But either which way, everyone has the right to do what they feel comfortable with, and if you don’t like it, that’s actually pretty rude on your part. And it doesn’t actually mean at all that you are beneath anyone, it’s a modesty rule for some people.
>
> > [@lindsaybluth](#):
> >
> > Bolding mine. You wanna be the crazy? Fine. I hope it hinders you in your job. You don’t get to decide what’s appropriate for wider society.
>
> Uh, that’s what I said.
I should have added…except for the part about hindering their job. Can’t go along with that.
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### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/79 "2010-09-24T23:32:54Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> Uh, that’s what I said.
Whoops sorry, that wasn’t directed negatively toward you, I was agreeing with you.
If you’re working in the meat department and have dietary or handling restrictions, that’s a problem. Ditto if the job requires you work on Saturdays or Sundays and it’s your ‘holy day’.
---
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/80 "2010-09-24T23:51:56Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > Uh, that’s what I said.
>
> Whoops sorry, that wasn’t directed negatively toward you, I was agreeing with you.
>
> If you’re working in the meat department and have dietary or handling restrictions, that’s a problem. Ditto if the job requires you work on Saturdays or Sundays and it’s your ‘holy day’.
I want to be a stripper but I’ve got to wear this robe. That’s OK, right?
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