# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/81 "2010-09-25T15:00:59Z")
Definitely! Not shaving your legs or being attractive is also acceptable. We’re completely equal-opportunity over here.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/82 "2010-09-25T16:02:06Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > Uh, that’s what I said.
>
> Whoops sorry, that wasn’t directed negatively toward you, I was agreeing with you.
>
> If you’re working in the meat department and have dietary or handling restrictions, that’s a problem. Ditto if the job requires you work on Saturdays or Sundays and it’s your ‘holy day’.
Well, sure, if your rules prohibit you from doing things that are necessary for completing job tasks, then it follows that you need to find a job that doesn’t require those things. But if you are talking about a normal business environment where shaking hands is a courtesy gesture when meeting someone and not a job requirement, then everyone should be able to politely work around it, and I think that any damage it may do to a person’s career is nothing more than discrimination.
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### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/83 "2010-09-25T18:55:54Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > Uh, that’s what I said.
>
> Whoops sorry, that wasn’t directed negatively toward you, I was agreeing with you.
>
> If you’re working in the meat department and have dietary or handling restrictions, that’s a problem. Ditto if the job requires you work on Saturdays or Sundays and it’s your ‘holy day’.
It’s really not that big a deal. I have several Orthodox Jews in my family and they are very familiar with the rules of their practice. They just don’t take a job that would interfere with those rules. It’s not that big a restriction. They are successful lawyers, doctors, therapists, teachers, etc.
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### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/84 "2010-09-25T19:22:43Z")
Perhaps I’m just a bit irked because my gym, the JCC, is closed or closes early for 2 full weeks this month, and added on additional holidays they didn’t close for preciously, including Simchat Torah. There were more added pool hours for “women only” and “men only”. :rolleyes: I don’t care if the rest of the facility is closed, by the gym portion is run and utilized almost exclusively by gentiles and secular Jews. I love the sense of community, but it’s getting old. The limited hours they have on Christmas and Sukkot show the gym is utilized by the substantial contingent of the irreligious when given a chance.
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### Author:  [@trapezoidal\_jellyfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trapezoidal_jellyfish)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/85 "2010-09-26T06:26:43Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#):
>
> Hmm, I’ve thought about this some years after it happened, and the subject seems appropriate. I worked for an Orthodox man for a couple of years. He didn’t shake hands, of course, and we regularly swapped chairs so that didn’t seem to be an issue. I always thought the not shaking hands was just a part of a bigger rule of no touching between unmarried men and women in general. But this one time…
>
> He had neck problems. I was aware of his frequent chiropractor visits to help with it. One day he was having a problem and asked me to try to therapeutically rub his neck to alleviate some pain. I have no idea how to do this, but tried nonetheless - I needed to use my knuckles to help the vertebrae “adjust” I guess. Anyway, I kind of felt dirty the whole time, because I was touching him, and I thought that was against the rules. Maybe because it was a mitigating circumstance? He really was uncomfortable and what I did seemed to help a little. Or it mattered less because I’m not Jewish?
Ok, here’s my best theory about his reasoning. There are Orthodox Jews that believe there are two different kinds of touching. There’s social touch, like hugging and shaking hands. The point of this is the human contact. The other kind of touch is anything with a practical goal- doctors, barbers, physical therapists, and others all need to touch you in order to get their job done. Maybe this guy appointed you his temporary massage therapist. Are you even sure his chiropractor was a man? Maybe that was a woman as well.
Then again, it’s also possible he felt it was a mitigating circumstance because of the amount of pain.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/86 "2010-09-26T06:37:39Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#):
>
> When I was working the front desk, I was told to greet walk-ins by standing, introducing myself and offering my hand. I quickly learned not to do that with men wearing yamakes or in typical Saudi garb. And if anyone refused my hand, I did not make an issue of it.
>
> I once was at a sidewalk sale where a fundamentalist Christian church had set up a table with a man and woman. I was discussing the topic with the man and introduced myself, offering my hand. When he shook it, I said “I thought you followed the Bible, but you didn’t ask me if I was on my period!”
>
> I noticed the woman’s face got brick red, and I thought she was going to die of embarassment. Then I noticed her whole body was shaking with repressed laughter. She had to get up and leave the table.
No offense, but why the hell would you do something so rude?
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### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/87 "2010-09-26T14:00:32Z")
Uh, maybe because religious zealots should be called out on their own BS?
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### Author:  [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/88 "2010-09-26T15:10:32Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> I like to think that I’m doing God’s work by raping every woman who shakes my hand. That’ll teach the sluts.
Well, in the technical biblical sense, you can just walk up and say "Don’t I _know_ you? Then get your wife to apologize and then run away.
It works for me.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/89 "2010-09-26T18:43:58Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> > [@lindsaybluth](#):
> >
> > Either that or Mr. Zealot over here lives up to and waaaaaay beyond his username.
>
> IIRC, \*\*ZPGZ \*\*is female. And has expressed any number of :checks forum: \*interestingly controversial \*opinions on this board.
No, that poster _claims_ their _posting ID_ is “female”. Not that I am saying they are not what they claim, but males pretending to be female are not uncommon on the Internet.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/90 "2010-09-26T19:05:53Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > Actually, if the offeree just kepts their hands to themselves or asks if shaking hands is appropriate, no gets offended or embarassed. It’s much easier that way and avoid conflict. Where as the offer, no I can’t it’s against my religion, etc., easily leads to more conflict.
>
> Except that in this culture, shaking hands IS appropriate. It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society. I’ve known people who wouldn’t shake hands for various reasons. They are polite and just decline, and no one gives them any trouble about it.
Unfortunately, not everyone feels the way you do and some of them will give people trouble about it. I have been fired from jobs for refusing to shake hands with men. If you ever wonder why so many Rom steal, crap like that is the reason why? If you won’t let someone work a legitimate job without violating their morals, they will turn to an illegitimate one (i.e., crime). And letting the opposite sex touch you is not a requirement for doing data entry.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/91 "2010-09-26T19:11:37Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> Sorry, but if someone refuses a handshake for any other reason than health (they have an autoimmune disorder or have huge open sores) or genuine discomfort (you’re in a dark alley at 3am) then they’re full of shit. I don’t care if it’s cultural or religious. It’s bullshit, and it fundamentally means that I am beneath you. Since when is wanting a secularized society a bad thing?
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > Except that in this culture, shaking hands IS appropriate. **It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society.** I’ve known people who wouldn’t shake hands for various reasons. They are polite and just decline, and no one gives them any trouble about it.
>
> Bolding mine. You wanna be the crazy? Fine. I hope it hinders you in your job. You don’t get to decide what’s appropriate for wider society.
A truly secular society would emphasize the right to body privacy and trying to get anyone to touch you when they obviously didn’t want to would be regarded as very rude. I truly wonder why you feel it is so important to have someone touch your hand. It’s really a meaningless gesture since handshakes are not binding contracts in this larger society and it spreads germs.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/92 "2010-09-26T19:18:06Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> In her first post, she called a man a rude jerk for holding out his hand to be shaken. Which is a bit of an overreaction. Being offended that the person couldn’t shake his hand is not reasonable, IMO, but he’s not a rude jerk for offering.
To the leader of a MUSLIM student group. Come on, anyone with two functioning brain cells should know that is definitely a religious group were there are prohibitions about male/female physical contact and that is definitely a time when a man with any courtesy would wait for a woman to initiate hand touching. Nor should a man in that scenario be remotely surprised(or offended) that the woman didn’t want to have physical contact with him. He was a jerk looking for a reason to say something negative about a Muslim. I’m surprised he didn’t offer her a beer and a ham sandwich, so he could be offended when she refused that.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/93 "2010-09-26T19:29:00Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#):
>
> Just out of curiosity, ZPG Zealot, what line of work are you in that you seem to deal with such unsavory characters?
I’m a reference librarian at a university. One thing I like about my campus is because we have so many students, staff and faculty from various countries, religions, and cultures, human resources has guidelines about handshaking (actually any form of physical contact is covered) written into our code of contact. Gentlemen keep your hands to your sides when in doubt is the law and it works very well at creating a polite, pleasant atmosphere where everyones’ rights are respected. I also work as a fortune teller/advisor, some of it is purely for entertainment purposes, I also have some people in my neighborhood who don’t trust more formal counseling situations who come to me for advice. Some of these people are illegals. Some have less than legitimate jobs. I come into some unsavory characters this way. Coyotes especially. I also lived in the former Yugoslavia during the late eighties and 90s. Dealing with unsavory characters, being able to judge people by subtle behavior clues was survival then.
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/94 "2010-09-26T19:55:45Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> A truly secular society would emphasize the right to body privacy and trying to get anyone to touch you when they obviously didn’t want to would be regarded as very rude. I truly wonder why you feel it is so important to have someone touch your hand. It’s really a meaningless gesture since handshakes are not binding contracts in this larger society and it spreads germs.
You keep phrasing it as “trying to get anyone to touch you when they obviously didn’t want do”. How about you ditch the straw-man?
Only an asshole would demand that you shake their hand after you declined. But instead you’re painting everyone who shakes hands as pushy douchebags who’re forcing it on one another.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/95 "2010-09-26T22:30:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > Except that in this culture, shaking hands IS appropriate. It may not be for certain individuals, but they don’t get to decide what’s appropriate in wider society. I’ve known people who wouldn’t shake hands for various reasons. They are polite and just decline, and no one gives them any trouble about it.
>
> Unfortunately, not everyone feels the way you do and some of them will give people trouble about it. I have been fired from jobs for refusing to shake hands with men. If you ever wonder why so many Rom steal, crap like that is the reason why? If you won’t let someone work a legitimate job without violating their morals, they will turn to an illegitimate one (i.e., crime). And letting the opposite sex touch you is not a requirement for doing data entry.
If you’ve been fired from jobs in the US for refusing to shake hands with men, I think you’ve got a nice strong case for religious discrimination.
> [@ZPG Zealot](#):
>
> To the leader of a MUSLIM student group. Come on, anyone with two functioning brain cells should know that is definitely a religious group were there are prohibitions about male/female physical contact and that is definitely a time when a man with any courtesy would wait for a woman to initiate hand touching. Nor should a man in that scenario be remotely surprised(or offended) that the woman didn’t want to have physical contact with him. He was a jerk looking for a reason to say something negative about a Muslim. I’m surprised he didn’t offer her a beer and a ham sandwich, so he could be offended when she refused that.
I’m not sure everyone here in the US has enough experience dealing with Muslims to understand the issue. But, certainly, anyone who is OFFENDED that she couldn’t shake hands with him is indeed a jerk. The offer itself is perfectly polite.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/96 "2010-09-26T22:31:29Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> Uh, maybe because religious zealots should be called out on their own BS?
So…wishing to practice one’s own religion is what you call religious zealotry?
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/97 "2010-09-26T23:59:04Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > A truly secular society would emphasize the right to body privacy and trying to get anyone to touch you when they obviously didn’t want to would be regarded as very rude. I truly wonder why you feel it is so important to have someone touch your hand. It’s really a meaningless gesture since handshakes are not binding contracts in this larger society and it spreads germs.
>
> You keep phrasing it as “trying to get anyone to touch you when they obviously didn’t want do”. How about you ditch the straw-man?
>
> Only an asshole would demand that you shake their hand after you declined. But instead you’re painting everyone who shakes hands as pushy douchebags who’re forcing it on one another.
What straw-man? I have first hand knowledge of exactly that in the form of getting fired for refusing to shake hands with men. Trying to force someone by holding termination from a job over their heads if they don’t shake hands is trying to get someone to touch you when they obviously don’t want to. And there was nothing in any of those jobs that required greeting people or acting as a hostress or anyway. One was freaking data entry in a cube farm. I’m painting everyone that thinks they have an automatic right to pressure people into touching them as a pushy douchebag because well, they are.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/98 "2010-09-27T00:05:39Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#):
>
> I’m not sure everyone here in the US has enough experience dealing with Muslims to understand the issue. But, certainly, anyone who is OFFENDED that she couldn’t shake hands with him is indeed a jerk. The offer itself is perfectly polite.
You can’t be serious. With 9/11, the Taliban, and the wars in the mid East on the news for the last 9 years. The wino street beggars and the illegal alien day-laborers in my neighborhood know Muslim women don’t touch men other than their husbands.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/99 "2010-09-27T00:33:30Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@Sarahfeena](#):
> >
> > I’m not sure everyone here in the US has enough experience dealing with Muslims to understand the issue. But, certainly, anyone who is OFFENDED that she couldn’t shake hands with him is indeed a jerk. The offer itself is perfectly polite.
>
> You can’t be serious. With 9/11, the Taliban, and the wars in the mid East on the news for the last 9 years. The wino street beggars and the illegal alien day-laborers in my neighborhood know Muslim women don’t touch men other than their husbands.
I didn’t know it was a universal rule among all Muslims. Still don’t, in fact. It’s a rule among Orthodox Jews, but not the reform Jews I know, so for all I know there are similar variations in the beliefs of Muslims, as well.
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### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/100 "2010-09-27T00:44:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> You can’t be serious. With 9/11, the Taliban, and the wars in the mid East on the news for the last 9 years. The wino street beggars and the illegal alien day-laborers in my neighborhood know Muslim women don’t touch men other than their husbands.
I actually didn’t know this, until just now. At least, if your claim is that this is universal among Muslim women. I would have thought I’d have noticed it, living among and going to school with a whole bunch of Muslim women on the North Side of Chicago, but it’s entirely certain I’ve been clueless and unobservant enough to miss it. Whatever…no, until now I did \*not \*know that, universally, Muslim women don’t touch men other than their husbands. I knew they weren’t supposed to be alone with them, and I know they wouldn’t go to a male massage therapist, but I didn’t know a touch as professional and distant as a handshake was verboten, \*especially \*for the subset of Muslim women unorthodox enough to work outside the home in a secular environment.
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