# How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640 "2010-09-22T14:05:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 29, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/141 "2010-09-29T19:58:34Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> She must have had some way of knowing that, under my coat, the sleeves of my sweater were pushed up… _all the way to my elbows!_
>
> I’m such a harlot.
… please tell me you were wearing gloves.
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### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [September 29, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/142 "2010-09-29T20:30:20Z")
No. And I even took off my coat and scarf once I got to the office.
It’s also possible that I may have made eye contact with one or more people.
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### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [September 29, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/143 "2010-09-29T21:12:47Z")
Good grief, you slut, did you shake their hands too?
- looks around \*
Awww, did \*\*Zealot \*\*run away?
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### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [September 29, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/144 "2010-09-29T21:27:36Z")
Hey now, I’m a loose woman, but I’d never sink to \*that \*level!
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/145 "2010-10-02T02:31:50Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#):
>
> Uh, maybe because religious zealots should be called out on their own BS?
How? By shouting out “Hey, I’m on my period!” Hell, I’m not a religious zealot, and I’d be embarassed. TMI, much?
How was the guy acting? Was he being a blowhard, or just saying he was from such and such church?
In some cultures, people bow instead of shaking heads. Do you find that insulting?
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/146 "2010-10-02T03:18:44Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#):
>
> > [@cwthree](#):
> >
> > … You seem to be confusing a common, non-sexual gesture that is generally understood to be polite with actual physical contact, suggestive gestures, and/or cat-calling.
>
> Well, there’s that.
>
> **Zealot** , what do you think of the fact that there are women on this very thread who see what you yourself call “one more way men have of stripping rights away from women” as the very opposite, as a sign that women are closer to having all the same rights as men, that we are treated (more and more) as equals and not second-class citizens. You seem intent on stripping _that_ away from us!
>
> No one here is advocating touching people against their will. What we’re saying is that you’re using overblown bombastic rhetoric to condemn a common, everyday gesture of social courtesy. Comparing someone who offers a handshake to “rapists” is deeply, deeply insulting to anyone who’s been, y’know, _raped_.
Having nearly been raped more than a few times, I find comparing a method I have found very successful as a first filtering level for dangerous men rude to be deeply insulting. Since when is it rude to look out for yourself?
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/147 "2010-10-02T03:29:53Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > It’s pushy (and a little creepy) when there is the possibility (especially in cases where possibility is really a good strong probability) the woman may not want to shake your hand for whatever reason (cultural, religious, she thinks you’re gross etc.) because it’s requesting physical contact. If you are a gentlemen you ask. If you are a pushy jerk you barrel forward and shouldn’t complain when your rebuffed.
>
> Do you even realize what you’re saying?
>
> A handshake is a request for physical contact. But you’re saying that you should _ask_ before you offer a handshake. Essentially you are saying that I should ask to ask for a handshake.
It’s rather common in multi-ethnic communities where people of different cultures meet and do business. I have been asked the question numerous times at an introduction usually it’s phrased sometime along the lines “Is it the custom of your people for women to shake hands upon meeting?” (most recently said to me by a Pakistani jeweler). Of course, the proper reply is to bow one’s head slightly and say, “Only when meeting other women, but if we make the deal, I can shake hands wearing my gloves.” Jeweler bowed back and we proceded to argue over the price of silver rings until we reached a satisfactory agreement. We didn’t shake hands though. We had coffee and sweets.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/148 "2010-10-02T03:47:42Z")
> [@cwthree](#):
>
> You’ve pointed out before that you’re Roma. IME, Roma family culture is not really comparable to normative American business culture.
American business culture could use some multi-culturalism if it’s going to survive. America in general should be more accepting of different cultures. My community, the many Muslim communities, the Orthodox Jews, the Koreans, we are all citizens just like you. We pay taxes. We build businesses. We generate revenue. Our kids go to college and get the education America needs to compete in the global marketplace. We have the right to decent treatment in our own country.
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2010, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/149 "2010-10-02T09:31:27Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> > [@AClockworkMelon](#):
> >
> > Do you even realize what you’re saying?
> >
> > A handshake is a request for physical contact. But you’re saying that you should _ask_ before you offer a handshake. Essentially you are saying that I should ask to ask for a handshake.
>
> It’s rather common in multi-ethnic communities where people of different cultures meet and do business. I have been asked the question numerous times at an introduction usually it’s phrased sometime along the lines “Is it the custom of your people for women to shake hands upon meeting?” (most recently said to me by a Pakistani jeweler). Of course, the proper reply is to bow one’s head slightly and say, “Only when meeting other women, but if we make the deal, I can shake hands wearing my gloves.” Jeweler bowed back and we proceded to argue over the price of silver rings until we reached a satisfactory agreement. We didn’t shake hands though. We had coffee and sweets.
His asking “Is it the custom of your people for women to shake hands upon meeting?” is exactly the same as me offering my hand. You rejected him just like you could reject me. If I get butthurt that’s my fault, not yours. You are expecting us to ask to ask to shake hands.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/150 "2010-10-03T00:47:23Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
> >
> > It’s rather common in multi-ethnic communities where people of different cultures meet and do business. I have been asked the question numerous times at an introduction usually it’s phrased sometime along the lines “Is it the custom of your people for women to shake hands upon meeting?” (most recently said to me by a Pakistani jeweler). Of course, the proper reply is to bow one’s head slightly and say, “Only when meeting other women, but if we make the deal, I can shake hands wearing my gloves.” Jeweler bowed back and we proceded to argue over the price of silver rings until we reached a satisfactory agreement. We didn’t shake hands though. We had coffee and sweets.
>
> His asking “Is it the custom of your people for women to shake hands upon meeting?” is exactly the same as me offering my hand. You rejected him just like you could reject me. If I get butthurt that’s my fault, not yours. You are expecting us to ask to ask to shake hands.
I am expecting you not to presume every woman you encounter wants to touch flesh with you. Dangling out a hand assumes the practice is okay with the woman. Asking before you raise the hand implies you want to cause the least hassle to all parties. I did not reject him (whatever that means you seem to think people have to be intimate buddies to be civil and do business). By asking the question and keeping his hands at his side, the man created an environment in which rejection did not even factor into our meeting.
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### Author:  [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/151 "2010-10-03T02:47:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> Perhaps off topic… What would an ultra-orthodox Jew think about a a drug that prevents menstruation?
>
> The possibly complicating factor is that the several drugs that do this are birth control pills, which might involve an entirely different set of religious issues.
There’s no particular obligation to get one’s period (and to thus be subject to the rules and regulations around that). Different groups approach birth control differently, but my impression is that in almost every Orthodox group, at least some engaged women will go on birth control pills, to manipulate their cycles in order to make sure that they’re not menstruating (or in the week right afterwards) at the wedding. In an ultra-Orthodox group, they will certainly not stay on them after the wedding, but manipulating periods isn’t the issue, it’s opposition to birth control.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, in the Orthodox world, no matter how ultra, worries about most matters of ritual purity nowadays, including sitting on the chairs of menstruating women. It’s an issue that’s only relevant when there’s a Temple, which there hasn’t been for nearly two millenia.
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### Author:  [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/152 "2010-10-03T04:33:42Z")
**ZPG Zealot** , couple of questions for you:
You keep referencing men being offended/pushy when you reject their handshake. I’m wondering how you react–exact phrasing, please–to an offered hand. When you meet someone and they offer to shake your hand, are you giving them an “I think you’re a repulsive rapist” look and then a nice lecture on how rude/insensitive to your culture they’re being? Because I just can’t \*imagine \*how that might get a negative reaction from people who were only trying to be polite and inclusive to begin with.
You’ve mentioned a couple of times that you’ve been fired from jobs for refusing handshakes. Is it possible that they were looking for a reason to fire you because they thought you were insane, condescending, overly sensitive, and a bad match for the company? Just a thought.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/153 "2010-10-03T20:18:06Z")
> [@Renee](#):
>
> **ZPG Zealot** , couple of questions for you:
>
> You keep referencing men being offended/pushy when you reject their handshake. I’m wondering how you react–exact phrasing, please–to an offered hand. When you meet someone and they offer to shake your hand, are you giving them an “I think you’re a repulsive rapist” look and then a nice lecture on how rude/insensitive to your culture they’re being? Because I just can’t \*imagine \*how that might get a negative reaction from people who were only trying to be polite and inclusive to begin with.
>
> You’ve mentioned a couple of times that you’ve been fired from jobs for refusing handshakes. Is it possible that they were looking for a reason to fire you because they thought you were insane, condescending, overly sensitive, and a bad match for the company? Just a thought.
I simply say it’s against my religious beliefs to have physical contact with a man other than my husband. On numerous occasions I have had to listen to Christian fundie nutbags badger me on how “That’s not what Jesus said” (As if I care.) There are certain strands of American male that have a problem with that, probably the same white trash creeps that tell random women to smile.
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### Author:  [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/154 "2010-10-05T16:53:04Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> American business culture could use some multi-culturalism if it’s going to survive.
Why does everyone in America have to start asking if it’s okay to shake your hand? Why isn’t it equally acceptable for you to simply politely refuse a proffered hand?
You’re the equivalent of a conservative Muslim man insisting that \*all \*women in the U.S. should start wearing hijab.
> [@](#):
>
> We have the right to decent treatment in our own country.
Offering you a hand is decent treatment. Insisting that you shake it is rude.
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> I am expecting you not to presume every woman you encounter wants to touch flesh with you.
For the vast majority of American women, a handshake with anyone, male or female, is not a problem. You are in the extreme minority. You are welcome to maintain the standards of your own culture, but you shouldn’t expect everyone else to stop offering handshakes to all women just because you, personally, don’t like it. There’s nothing stopping you from politely rejecting the handshake.
> [@](#):
>
> Asking before you raise the hand implies you want to cause the least hassle to all parties.
No, it causes the least hassle to _you_, _personally_, and other people who don’t shake hands. Who are a tiny minority in U.S. culture. It causes \*massive \*hassle for \*everyone else \*who has no problem with shaking hands.
> [@](#):
>
> By asking the question and keeping his hands at his side, the man created an environment in which rejection did not even factor into our meeting.
No he didn’t. You \*rejected \*him… verbally instead of physically. That’s the only difference. A proffered hand is just a physical offer versus a verbal one. It’s just as simple for you to tell someone you don’t shake hands when they offer you a hand as it is for you to do it when they ask you if they can shake your hand. The only person the restriction you purports benefits is yourself, and the minority of women like you; it causes problems for everyone else, and it \*actively offends \*many other women like me.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/155 "2010-10-05T18:02:58Z")
Why it offends you that a man would wait for an invitation to touch your body is bizarre? You are probably the first woman I have ever heard of that was offended by being treated politely. I did not reject the Pakastani gentlemen I mentioned earlier. I made the business deal with him (heck, I’ve recommended him to others). Declining to shake hands with someone is not rejecting them. It’s declining to press your flesh against them. And any sane society respects the right of a person not to be touched against their will. The whole idea behind etiquette is to create an environment where people can interact respecting each others beliefs not imposing their own on others. When a man sticks his hand out it’s an invitation to a confrontation, a confrontation which could be avoided. In order to violate her moral beliefs a woman may have to reject him. Hand shaking is one area were the older etiquette should be perserved. It facilitates communication and tolerance between cultures instead of leading to insults and arguments.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/156 "2010-10-05T18:06:03Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> A proffered hand is just a physical offer versus a verbal one. It’s just as simple for you to tell someone you don’t shake hands when they offer you a hand as it is for you to do it when they ask you if they can shake your hand. The only person the restriction you purports benefits is yourself, and the minority of women like you; it causes problems for everyone else, and it \*actively offends \*many other women like me.
I suppose a man unzipping his pants and holding out his penis is then an acceptable why of asking for sex with you after all it’s just a physical offer versus a verbal one. Sticking out a hand implies a lot more than an offer. It’s an expectation, one which a man has no right to make of a woman.
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### Author:  [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/157 "2010-10-05T19:12:25Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> I suppose a man unzipping his pants and holding out his penis is then an acceptable why of asking for sex with you after all it’s just a physical offer versus a verbal one. Sticking out a hand implies a lot more than an offer. It’s an expectation, one which a man has no right to make of a woman.
I \<3 this thread.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/158 "2010-10-05T20:13:30Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#):
>
> A proffered hand is just a physical offer versus a verbal one. It’s just as simple for you to tell someone you don’t shake hands when they offer you a hand as it is for you to do it when they ask you if they can shake your hand. The only person the restriction you purports benefits is yourself, and the minority of women like you; it causes problems for everyone else, and it \*actively offends \*many other women like me.
Seriously, all you are doing is giving a sexual harasser an opening wedge to use against women. They try to grab our hands because (finally) they can be fired for grabbing our asses). Violence against women doesn’t arise in a vacuum. It’s part of a culture meme that it’s all right to sacrifice women’s bodies for male comfort. The first step in changing that is the principle that you do not touch someone without their permission (\*baring of course necessary medical and life-saving aid) or make them touch you.
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### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/159 "2010-10-05T20:20:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> … When a man sticks his hand out it’s an invitation to a confrontation…
As near as I can tell, this is where our whole, um, disagreement lies.
Most of us - women AND men - do NOT see an offered hand as any sort of invitation to any sort of confrontation. Maybe you do, but I don’t, and 99.9% of the folks on this board, and in our society (we talkin’ US or Europe here, right?) don’t as well.
When you say “invitation to a confrontation” I picture some drunk dude trying to start a bar fight by offering to shake hands. 😛
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### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/160 "2010-10-05T20:22:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Seriously, all you are doing is giving a sexual harasser an opening wedge to use against women…
If a man is really and truly a sexual harasser, he doesn’t _need_ a “let’s shake hands!” scenario to go for it and try to take what he wants. It’s not like _not_ shaking hands will magically protect you from anything.
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