# How do Utah citizens not die of embarassment from Orrin Hatch, possibly the lyingest congressperson? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460 "2011-07-01T02:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/1 "2011-07-01T02:05:03Z")
Here’s Orrin Hatch’s latest great big lie in reaction to Obama’s press conference yesterday, from [here](http://www.npr.org/2011/06/29/137506900/congress-reacts-to-obamas-presser): > [@](#): > > Their answer to everything in this administration and on the other side of the floor, a large measure of them, is to increase taxes for everything. In case you don’t see the lie, from [here](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/29/barack-obama-republicans-borrowing-talks): > [@](#): > > The president, in a rare hour-long news conference, called on Republicans to “take on their sacred cows” – including tax breaks for "millionaires and billionaires, oil companies and corporate jet owners > [@](#): > > Obama said more than $1tn in cuts have already been agreed Obviously the tax increases Obama is proposing would extend beyond his list of fat cats, but to portray it as ‘increase taxes for everything’ is exactly the kind of stinker I’ve come to expect from Hatch. _Taxes have gone down under Obama._ I find it impossible to believe a person in his position is unaware of the $1 trillion in cuts the Democrats are offering. Gawd, what a liar! But how do the people of Utah continue to countenance this guy? It is one lie after another, after another, after another. After a while it starts to reflect poorly on the citizens of Utah- this is their representative after all. How can they stand it? I have one theory- the Mormon Culture of Lies. You’d have to look pretty hard to find a religion which makes more blatantly false claims than can be found in the Book of Mormon. If you don’t think so already, check out this wiki link about [Mormon archaeology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon). The fundamental conclusion is that the factual claims are a bunch of lies (prove me wrong, produce photos of the Golden Plates. No? Didn’t think so) I’m pretty sure the only people who truly believe it are 10-year-old Mormons and maybe some crazy people. That’s why they resort to so much coercion to keep people in their ranks. I used to think the stories were just rumors until I became acquainted with a guy who used to be fairly high up in the Mormon church. He followed everything, got married and had a slew of kids, the whole nine. Later in life he questioned some of the teachings. He was told, “You can’t question it.” “But why not? Some of this doesn’t add up.” “Because you can’t.” Long story short, for asking questions he got kicked out of the church. He didn’t quit- he got tossed out. His wife left him (they even got ‘un-bound’!), his family forgot him, and so on. Overnight he became an outcast. These are the kinds of stories I’d heard but always dismissed as rumors. But no, they keep people in line with the coercive threat of taking everything they can away from anyone who so much as _questions_ the false religion. They follow through and make examples of ‘wrongdoers’. I used to think Evangelicals were the only group which behaved like this (if you’ve never done time in an Evangelical-majority community, you might not know what I mean). I find it sick that this is their take on ‘religious freedom’- yah, you’re free to choose, but say goodbye if you choose intellectual honesty! Which brings us to the Mormon culture of lies. People who can’t stand the thought of being forever separated from their families and friends continue to go along with the falsehoods. Living a lie is in Utah DNA. I hate to point this out about Mormons- they personally have always struck me as just nice folks who aren’t a religious nuisance at all, even the ones that knock on your door. But between Orrin Hatch’s relentless, shameless lying and the rumors I’ve recently seen confirmed, now I have to wonder if they are just being ingratiating when they are in the minority, biding their time until they can coerce the rest of us the way they coerce their own. In effect, the Mormon church to some degree is a hostage situation (sure is a nice family you got there, it’d be a shame if you were suddenly not a part of it). Many members are coerced to accept lies as a lifestyle, and the lying is reflected plainly by their representative, the asshole liar Orrin Hatch. They are probably coerced to vote for guys like him, and face consequences for noticing his lies just like they face consequences for noticing the lies of other local authorities. He and his GOP buddies now seek to hold the US economy hostage to protect (a tiny portion of) the fortunes of billionaires at the expense of seniors, students, the poor and unemployed, pretty much all vulnerable people. They all lie and lie and lie in their attempts to achieve this, but Hatch seems the worst of the bunch. You should be ashamed, Utah. Screw you for inflicting the pathologically lying Orrin Hatch on the rest of us, he is an embarrassment. And religious coercion should end, Mormon or otherwise. You suck. yes, I’m sure there are Utah-citizen exceptions to this pitting. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/2 "2011-07-01T02:09:25Z")
It’s not wrong if you’re lying for God. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/3 "2011-07-01T02:56:57Z")
The tea baggers are probably going to toss him out this next election for not being nuts enough. As for the Orrinator, I’ve always thought he was the most sanctimonious politician I’ve ever seen, but he is quite vociferous in his misrepresenting what his opponents have said. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/4 "2011-07-01T04:05:03Z")
**"Orrin Hatch, possibly the lyingest congressperson"** Of all time? pfft, I hardly think Orrin ranks even near the top 100… ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/5 "2011-07-01T04:34:46Z")
I hate it when he starts some rant against a political opponent—and then shifts into an anti-religious screed about a quarter of the way through. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/6 "2011-07-01T05:28:18Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > **“Orrin Hatch, possibly the lyingest congressperson”** > > Of all time? pfft, I hardly think Orrin ranks even near the top 100… I was out of room. I didn’t mean all-time, just now. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/7 "2011-07-01T12:25:17Z")
Now that is a fine idea for a thread. “The 100 lyingest politicians.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/8 "2011-07-01T13:14:17Z")
President Obama is crazy to think that the business jet tax policy will make much difference, especially right now. I work for a division of a company that manufactures aircraft - I can tell you that sales are not great right now because of the economy. There is also a a massive amount of used planes in good repair on the market - most companies that need a plane would buy one of these, and not need to claim depreciation. I personally don’t favor the tax code having a lot of loopholes - but I will note that our planes are made by unionized workers with good pay, and are exported around the world. I thought these were things the Administration wanted to encourage. It makes little sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/9 "2011-07-01T13:32:02Z")
Orrin Hatch is someone I agree with very rarely. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you could come up with pages and pages of stuff that he said that I’d consider dishonest. However, Hatch is a baby liar when it comes to measuring the “lyingest congressperson.” Most of the rest of the Republican party is far worse than he is. And, as for the “Mormon culture of lies,” there have been some very decent liberal Democrats who were Mormons. Is everyone forgetting the Udall family? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/10 "2011-07-01T13:49:00Z")
I’m exploring for a connection between religious culture and coercive tactics employed these days by the pubbies. Politically, the pubbies expect everyone to ‘believe’ in their crazy faith about taxing billionaires (it is Bad Bad Bad, you can never do it, just like you can not have sex before marriage or you’re off the BYU basketball team!). Don’t want to go along with it? ‘That’s a nice government you got there, sure would be a shame if something were to happen to it.’ See [Minnesota government shuts down.](http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110630/US.Minnesota.Government.Shutdown/) Likewise, don’t believe this unsupportable Mormon alternative history and all the mad conclusions that follow? Yer out. The imposition of lies seems the same in both cases. The coercion is social in the religious case, mostly economic in the political case. What they have in common is a steaming load of crap at the top, and a mass of sufferers at the bottom. Hatch jumps out at me as particularly dishonest- we’ll see what others think. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/11 "2011-07-01T14:13:16Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Hatch jumps out at me as particularly dishonest- we’ll see what others think. So just to be clear – it’s your thesis that Orrin Hatch is remarkable for his lying, right? To rebut this, it would be appropriate to offer examples of equally egregious – or more egregios – lying by other congresspeople? And/or to show that statements you characterized as lies are not actually lies. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/12 "2011-07-01T14:29:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So just to be clear – it’s your thesis that Orrin Hatch is remarkable for his lying, right? To rebut this, it would be appropriate to offer examples of equally egregious – or more egregios – lying by other congresspeople? And/or to show that statements you characterized as lies are not actually lies. Yes? I’m not particularly dogmatic. Clear reasoning from point A to point B can persuade me. I just want to avoid arguments of the form ‘it depends what the meaning of is is’ if ya know what I mean. I gotta run, I’ll be back tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/13 "2011-07-01T15:17:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’m not particularly dogmatic. Clear reasoning from point A to point B can persuade me. I just want to avoid arguments of the form ‘it depends what the meaning of is is’ if ya know what I mean. > > I gotta run, I’ll be back tonight. OK. So just to test the waters, [here is Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/19/nancy-pelosi/nancy-pelosi-posts-questionable-chart-debt-accumul/) on a chart used by Nancy Pelosi to claim: > [@](#): > > Who Increased The Debt? > > Ronald Reagan: Up 189 percent > George H.W. Bush: Up 55 percent > Bill Clinton: Up 37 percent > George W. Bush: Up 115 percent > Barack Obama: Up 16 percent Politifact goes on to dryly point out: > [@](#): > > We can see why a liberal group would tout such numbers, since – if accurate – they offer powerful counterevidence to the claims by conservatives that President Barack Obama has been a spendthrift who’s set the nation on an unsustainable fiscal path. After analyzing the numbers, however: > [@](#): > > So by this measurement – potentially a more important one – Obama is the undisputed debt king of the last five presidents, rather than the guy who added a piddling amount to the debt, as Pelosi’s chart suggested. Of course, all this goes to show that statistics can be used – and misused – to bolster almost any argument. > > After we presented our research to Pelosi’s office, a spokesman acknowledged that the office had erred in assembling and posting the chart and that it was in the process of reposting it. The updated version – which corrects the mathematical error but not what we consider to be the three additional design flaws – can be found here. > > That’s a step in the right direction, but it doesn’t change our rating since it only occurred as a result of our fact-checking. We find so much wrong with this chart that we don’t think it contains any significant approximation of the truth. It made a major calculation error that dramatically skewed the debt increase away from Obama and toward George W. Bush. It glossed over significant variations in time served in office. It cherry-picked the measurement that was favorable to its cause. And it is contradicted by statistics for GDP-adjusted debt, which show Obama to be the most, rather than the least, debt-creating president of the last five. None of this suggests that Obama can’t turn things around as the economy improves (and Democrats can also take some solace in the fact that Bill Clinton did remarkably well in all of our measurements). But in communicating which administrations contributed the most to growth of the debt, this chart is a failure. We rate it Pants on Fire. Woudl this be an example of a large unambiguous lie? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/14 "2011-07-01T15:28:57Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I personally don’t favor the tax code having a lot of loopholes - but I will note that our planes are made by unionized workers with good pay, and are exported around the world. I thought these were things the Administration wanted to encourage. Come on, you’re an intelligent guy, you know how silly this statement is. Virtually every business in the nation outside of the maker of the Snuggie or the **Jersey Shore** production company can proclaim the virtue of their line of business (the free market only supporting businesses which provide economic value for someone else and so forth), but we need to finance the operation of our government from taxes. It’s best if we make those taxes fair, even, and simple to pay for all industries rather than trying to make the economy even “more virtuous” than its natural state through a billion special tax incentives. There’s nothing particularly wonderful about private jets that should exempt them from a reasonable corporate tax (not to say that the United State’s current corporate tax rate is reasonable). ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/15 "2011-07-01T15:30:53Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I personally don’t favor the tax code having a lot of loopholes - but I will note that our planes are made by unionized workers with good pay, and are exported around the world. I thought these were things the Administration wanted to encourage. OMG, Obama is going to change the tax laws of other countries too! That is bad. But given various economic policy choices I always side with the ones that help rich people. Capital gains taxes are bad flat rates on wages are good; income tax is bad sales taxes are good, minimum wage laws are bad oil depreciation exemptions are good. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/16 "2011-07-01T15:39:11Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Come on, you’re an intelligent guy, you know how silly this statement is. Virtually every business in the nation outside of the maker of the Snuggie or the **Jersey Shore** production company can proclaim the virtue of their line of business (the free market only supporting businesses which provide economic value for someone else and so forth), but we need to finance the operation of our government from taxes. It’s best if we make those taxes fair, even, and simple to pay for all industries rather than trying to make the economy even “more virtuous” than its natural state through a billion special tax incentives. There’s nothing particularly wonderful about private jets that should exempt them from a reasonable corporate tax (not to say that the United State’s current corporate tax rate is reasonable). It is a depreciation tax. Now, the difference here is a change from depreciating the plane over five years to depreciating it over seven years. That amounts to a fraction of a percent of the budget. Not enough to warrant a mention from the President several times in an afternoon. Calling that window dressing would be an insult to properly dressed windows everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/17 "2011-07-01T17:56:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK > Woudl this be an example of a large unambiguous lie? No dog in this particular fight, but I have to ask… Is it possible that they came up with numbers they got because they don’t really \*get \*statistical analysis? Meaning maybe they were incompetent rather than dishonest? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/18 "2011-07-01T18:13:13Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > No dog in this particular fight, but I have to ask… > > Is it possible that they came up with numbers they got because they don’t really \*get \*statistical analysis? > > Meaning maybe they were incompetent rather than dishonest? Of course it’s possible. But of the three methodological errors identified by Politifact (and provided to Pelosi’s office, who declined to adopt the changes) two of them would require an exceptionally obtuse viewpoint to believe: the time range problem and the use of public debt vs. gross debt. The first is pretty damn basic…how can you compare eight years to two years? The second is understandable, perhaps, except for the fact that the chart explicitly claimed it was using one, and then used the other. I suppose the third, overall debt vs. debt as a percentage of GDP, is something someone might reasonably miss. But adding up the basic errors – shaving a year off Obama’s spending and adding it to Bush’s, comparing the start of Obama’s term to the entirety of Bush’s, and claiming to use public debt and actually using gross debt figures – and also noting that each and every error favored their side, a neat piece of luck if pure incompetence was in play – I conclude the likelihood is slight. But possible? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/19 "2011-07-01T18:17:20Z")
I think ‘exceptionally obtuse’ covers most of congress. Of course, there’s no reason a person can’t be an idiot AND a liar… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/20 "2011-07-01T18:30:45Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I think ‘exceptionally obtuse’ covers most of congress. > > Of course, there’s no reason a person can’t be an idiot AND a liar… Indeed. But by way of contrast, here is the statement offered by the OP as an example of obvious and blatant lying on the part of Orrin Hatch: > [@](#): > > Their answer to everything in this administration and on the other side of the floor, a large measure of them, is to increase taxes for everything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460.md?page=2)