# How do Utah citizens not die of embarassment from Orrin Hatch, possibly the lyingest congressperson? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460 "2011-07-01T02:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/21 "2011-07-01T18:35:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Indeed. > > But by way of contrast, here is the statement offered by the OP as an example of obvious and blatant lying on the part of Orrin Hatch: Would you consider that falsehood or hyperbole? And would his intended audience make that distinction? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/22 "2011-07-01T18:57:37Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > President Obama is crazy to think that the business jet tax policy will make much difference, especially right now. I don’t think he believes it at all. However, by proposing it, and relying on the Republicans to automatically shout it down, he’s pretty effectively shown that the right is hypocritical in its “OMG WE NEED TO CUT CORNERS EVERYWHERE” plan. Teachers can stand a paycut, but don’t you dare touch anything our constituents like. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/23 "2011-07-01T19:20:55Z")
Nope, guys, give it up, **Bricker** found one, which totally and absolutely proves equivalence. In fact, since this is posted on a lefty-leaning board, it actually increases the lefty lie quotient by a marginal degree, thus making the lefty side more the liars than the right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/24 "2011-07-01T19:21:19Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Would you consider that falsehood or hyperbole? > > And would his intended audience make that distinction? It reads to me like hyperbole on the part of Hatch, but I suppose that Hatch’s intended audience (or some of them, anyway) might believe he was making a literal claim. The OP’s claim read to me as attempting a literal, not hyperbolic, claim about Hatch. Returning our attention to the Pelosi chart for a moment, would you say there’s much chance of that having been seen as hyperbole? I guess my point is that any way you slice it, Hatch’s claim, while not a model of either probity or clarity, is not worse than Pelosi’s claim by any reasonable barometer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/25 "2011-07-01T19:46:06Z")
Here’s an example. If someone were to say, “The Obamas are outrageous! Michelle Obama has more staff members than any other First Lady in the history of the United States!” then the claim is puffery, true or false. It’s clearly met to be hyperbole. But if someone were to say, as Glen Beck once did, “Michelle Obama has 43 staff members, and Nancy Reagan had only three!” then we can’t really characterize it as hyperbole anymore, because of the use of such highly specific claims. It’s an outright falsehood. (Mrs. Obama has 25 staff members, consistent with her immediate predecessors: Mrs. Bush had 26 at one point. Mrs. Clinton had 19. And Mrs. Reagan had 15. The numbers have grown throughout the years, reflecting an increase in the functions of the office of the First Lady). So neither claim is admirable, but the first can be dismissed more readily than the second. Beck’s claim was a out-and-out lie. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/26 "2011-07-01T20:07:51Z")
As well as the factuality of a statement, don’t we need to consider the consequence of the lie? To take an utterly wild hypothetical example, suppose a civic leader were to advance lies in order to provoke a lemming stampede to a futile, destructive, and ruinously expensive war. Crazy, I know, but bear with me just for the sake of argument… And then the question of persistence: how often is the lie repeated and what rhetorical mechanisms are deployed to support an ever shrinking credibility, what sub-lies, half-truths and misinterpretations are brought to bear in addition to simple falsehoods? Having dug a Grand Canyon of lies, can one simply staple it over with construction paper, or need one fill it back in, a spoonful of credibility at a time? Was the Republican leadership magically restored to parity when GeeDubya left office, or have they some penance yet to perform? Perhaps if the Democratic Party were to solemnly insist that Obama raises the dead and cures the leper as a re-election bid, they might reach a similar level of falsity, but not of consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/27 "2011-07-01T20:42:51Z")
Well, I don’t know. Nixon was a pretty big liar. That fact did not seem to help Carter’s 1980 reelection bid. If politics was about trust and credibility, neither party would probably deserve to win. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/28 "2011-07-01T21:08:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Returning our attention to the Pelosi chart for a moment, would you say there’s much chance of that having been seen as hyperbole? > . It was\* not \*hyperbole. As a gener rule, I follow “never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidty”. But when we are talking about politicians, there is a sleaze X factor to consider. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/29 "2011-07-01T21:21:12Z")
Ah leave Mr Hatch alone, He’s got important stuff to do like attach anti-abortion measures to the Korean free trade deal. Really he’s gone with his next election anyhow, Bennet wasn’t conservative enough for Utah you think Hatch really stands a chance. He’s going to do and say anything to keep himself in power and it won’t be enough, listening to him at this point is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/30 "2011-07-01T21:28:36Z")
I don’t know that Orrin is especially remarkable for lying, but he’s quite the sleazebag otherwise. I brought this up in another recent Pit thread targeting Hatch - he’s probably [the biggest lapdog of the “nutritional supplement” industry](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/06/orrin_hatch_the_supplement_industrys_lap.php) in the history of Congress, and it can be argued that thanks to Orrin, the supplement industry is free to tell lies about what their products do. > [@Bricker](#): > > If someone were to say, “The Obamas are outrageous! Michelle Obama has more staff members than any other First Lady in the history of the United States!” then the claim is puffery, true or false. It’s clearly met to be hyperbole. > > But if someone were to say, as Glen Beck once did, “Michelle Obama has 43 staff members, and Nancy Reagan had only three!” then we can’t really characterize it as hyperbole anymore, because of the use of such highly specific claims. It’s an outright falsehood. Sorry, both are examples of falsehoods. Specific numbers need not be provided. Would you also argue that if someone claimed that “President X pardoned more criminals than any other President in history”, it wouldn’t be a falsehood if precise numbers weren’t supplied, that it would just constitute “puffery”? What bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/31 "2011-07-01T22:44:19Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I was out of room. I didn’t mean all-time, just now. Well, he’s certainly one of the 100 lyingest senators right now. To be fair, Hatch is being pushed to the right by the tea party. Did you see what happened to Bennett? Well, he doesn’t want that to happen to him and being vitriolic and hyperbolic is the road to his job security. I’ve seen Grassley jerk to the right after getting smacked around for trying to be reasonable during the health care negotiations with Baucus and now he has adopted vitriolic partisanship. I see it up and down the Republican party. The Democrats won’t stand up to the Republicans and the Republicans won’t stand up to the tea party… so guess who is controlling the debate? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/32 "2011-07-01T22:49:15Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > President Obama is crazy to think that the business jet tax policy will make much difference, especially right now. > > I work for a division of a company that manufactures aircraft - I can tell you that sales are not great right now because of the economy. There is also a a massive amount of used planes in good repair on the market - most companies that need a plane would buy one of these, and not need to claim depreciation. > > I personally don’t favor the tax code having a lot of loopholes - but I will note that our planes are made by unionized workers with good pay, and are exported around the world. I thought these were things the Administration wanted to encourage. > > It makes little sense to me. You don’t need to buy new to get depreciation deductions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/33 "2011-07-01T22:50:37Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > OMG, Obama is going to change the tax laws of other countries too! That is bad. > > But given various economic policy choices I always side with the ones that help rich people. Capital gains taxes are bad flat rates on wages are good; income tax is bad sales taxes are good, minimum wage laws are bad oil depreciation exemptions are good. oil depreciation is called depletion. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/34 "2011-07-01T22:52:49Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > It is a depreciation tax. Now, the difference here is a change from depreciating the plane over five years to depreciating it over seven years. > > That amounts to a fraction of a percent of the budget. Not enough to warrant a mention from the President several times in an afternoon. > > Calling that window dressing would be an insult to properly dressed windows everywhere. Accelerating depreciation is a timing issue but to the extent that money has time value (and considering we pay so much in interest it seems like it does for us), decelerating some of the acceleration of deductions we have had recently might be useful. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/35 "2011-07-01T22:54:06Z")
> [@](#): > > have one theory- the Mormon Culture of Lies. You’d have to look pretty hard to find a religion which makes more blatantly false claims than can be found in the Book of Mormon. What do you know about Scientology? Would you like to know more? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/36 "2011-07-02T03:33:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Orrin Hatch is someone I agree with very rarely. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you could come up with pages and pages of stuff that he said that I’d consider dishonest. > > However, Hatch is a baby liar when it comes to measuring the “lyingest congressperson.” Most of the rest of the Republican party is far worse than he is. > > And, as for the “Mormon culture of lies,” there have been some very decent liberal Democrats who were Mormons. Is everyone forgetting the Udall family? The issue isn’t really “who’s Mormon?!?” With Udall, the relevant comparison is that he was a representative from Colorado. Coloradans voted him in, he represented them, and AFAIK he didn’t do anything outrageous as a result. Colorado isn’t culturally dominated by Mormons or any other religious group AFAIK- maybe demographic considerations aside, Coloradans are simply cooler overall? Orrin Hatch OTOH seems to me to be cranking out lie after lie. It got to a point I had to ask, “what is the major malfunction here?” Well, he’s representing Utah. I never had a problem with Utah before, but lately their representative is pissing me off with his relentless lies (it isn’t like the Democrats are beyond reproach. I really wish he’d produce some honest criticism instead of lies). Utah is the citadel of Mormonism, and on closer inspection there does seem to be a sort of coercive Mormon Culture of Lies. So maybe that’s at the root of it. I don’t even know if Hatch is Mormon or not. It doesn’t matter. ISTM that to represent that population, one would have to humor a pretty significant portion of the Mormon Culture of Lies, if not the whole thing. My hypothesis is that this is the explanation for Hatch’s behavior as a lie machine: he represents a bunch of people who are living a lie. Not that the Mormons I know aren’t nice. They don’t smoke or drink which is refreshing, they work hard and so on. Obviously one must choose conversation topics carefully with them… anyway, my impression is that there is an entirely different scenario in play in Utah where the Mormon Church is so influential. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/37 "2011-07-02T03:39:48Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > President Obama is crazy to think that the business jet tax policy will make much difference, especially right now. > > I work for a division of a company that manufactures aircraft - I can tell you that sales are not great right now because of the economy. There is also a a massive amount of used planes in good repair on the market - most companies that need a plane would buy one of these, and not need to claim depreciation. > > I personally don’t favor the tax code having a lot of loopholes - but I will note that our planes are made by unionized workers with good pay, and are exported around the world. I thought these were things the Administration wanted to encourage. > > It makes little sense to me. From [here](http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/28/news/economy/debt_ceiling_taxes/index.htm?section=money_mostpopular): > [@](#): > > The White House wants to close loopholes that benefit the owners of private jets, and raise taxes on hedge fund managers who benefit from paying lower tax rates on so-called “carried interest.” > Additional proposals would change how business inventory is taxed, and eliminate government subsidies for oil and gas companies. > > There is a common theme. The proposals spare the middle class and instead focus on corporations and the wealthy. The White House says they focus on “unnecessary” and “unjustifiable” tax breaks. > > Total savings are estimated at $100 billion to $150 billion. Compared to the $14+ trillion debt, I agree a tax on jet owners doesn’t seem like it is going to pull us through by itself. But the point is it closes a loophole on the _owners_. I don’t know all the details, but it is hard to believe any non-draconian tax on jet owners would dissuade enough of them from jet ownership such that it would have much effect on the union workers at your plant. But you’re closer to it than I am- are people really worried about it? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/38 "2011-07-02T03:41:27Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Now that is a fine idea for a thread. “The 100 lyingest politicians.” If you wanted to be a funny guy, you’d call it, “In No Particular Order, the 100 Lyingest Senators.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/39 "2011-07-02T04:13:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > So just to test the waters, [here is Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/19/nancy-pelosi/nancy-pelosi-posts-questionable-chart-debt-accumul/) on a chart used by Nancy Pelosi to claim: > After analyzing the numbers, however: > Woudl this be an example of a large unambiguous lie? Dammit, I said I didn’t want arguments in the form of ‘It depends on what the meaning of is is’! :mad: You’re parsing the meaning of ‘lie’ with your lawyerly tools, darn you to heck. But anyway, as Mark Twain said, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.” By Twain’s measure Pelosi is solidly in the 3rd circle of lies, while Hatch’s purely textual lying merely place him in the 2nd. Then again, one could take the position that, clerical error aside, Pelosi’s numbers actually are accurate and acceptable. Are there more meaningful ways to present financial data? That’s for the sophists to decide. I should mention that I can picture you taking either side of this argument under different circumstances. And then there is the question of what did the various presidents inherit? Reagan inherited Carter, which IMHO was a bedrock layer of sense with a structure of crappy results built on top. Reagan went nuts with the Republican agenda whatever else you want to say about him. GHW inherited Reagan. Expectations were high, a lot of people liked Reagan. HW IMHO did a professional and competent job, criticisms aside. He did have a hard-on for “Read My Lips: No New Taxes”, but you’ll be surprised to learn he was \*lying \*when he said that! Clinton inherited GHW. Certainly could have been worse, but now it was time for a [del]liberal[/del] what-was-Clinton-anyway? to run with the ball. His inheritance wasn’t an enormous pile of crap, and Clinton was pretty savvy (even though he lied about getting your dick sucked != sex), and pretty much everyone agrees he was good for the economy. Bush inherited Clinton. Had Obama come in at this point, we would currently be riding around in flying cars that produce fusion power via your own farts. Instead, we got W Obama inherited that. See where I’m going? But lest you start to think I don’t like you, let me humor you at the last. Say Pelosi is another big fat liar (can you produce 4 examples of Pelosi’s lying, to establish a pattern?). By the logic of this thread, we would need to investigate what is the major malfunction with her constituency such that she is so weasely with statistics. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460/40 "2011-07-02T04:22:19Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > …But anyway, as Mark Twain said, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.” … Sadly, no. He attributed it to Disraeli, but there is considerable doubt about that as well, many scholars preferring a colorless English lord otherwise unworthy of mention, Sir Reginald Dillweed. Or some such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-utah-citizens-not-die-of-embarassment-from-orrin-hatch-possibly-the-lyingest-congressperson/587460.md?page=3)