# How do voter ID laws suppress minority votes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968 "2013-08-11T22:09:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/41 "2013-08-12T07:43:20Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Serious question: Do most people actually not possess their birth certificate? I have right here in my possession the very certificate the hospital in Yuma, AZ issued to my parents in 1966 when I was born. (And I’ve had to present it a couple times - once when I got my first driver’s license, and once when I lost my Social Security card.) It would not surprise me if most people don’t. I didn’t until it came time to apply for a passport, when I had to send off to the state I was born in for a copy. There was a processing fee, I forget how much but I think much less than the $24 mentioned. I sent for a few copies to bring over here with me after that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/42 "2013-08-12T08:09:58Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Serious question: Do most people actually not possess their birth certificate? I have right here in my possession the very certificate the hospital in Yuma, AZ issued to my parents in 1966 when I was born. (And I’ve had to present it a couple times - once when I got my first driver’s license, and once when I lost my Social Security card.) I only have a copy of mine because, at some point before I turned 18, my parents got a copy, and I took it with me when I moved out. I don’t know what it took to get a copy, but if they hadn’t done it (or if they hadn’t been minimally competent bookkeepers) I wouldn’t have one today. Not without having to file a bunch of paperwork and pay some fees, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/43 "2013-08-12T08:29:44Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Do what Oregon (and now Washington State, maybe?) does. Vote by mail. This fixes a whole shitload of election problems. In-person voting should honestly just be illegal at this point. There’s no reason for it. Voting by mail fixes the whole problem of showing voter ID, etc. > > For those of you who don’t trust the postal service or whatever other issues you might have with voting by mail, they have all been thoroughly debunked. Have you ever lost something in the mail? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/44 "2013-08-12T13:23:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you aware that the Supreme Court ruled in _Crawford v. Marion County_ that requiring photo ID for voting does NOT offend the Constitution and upheld the law? Congratulations on answering a question that wasn’t asked. The point was being made about voter qualification laws such as literacy tests being illegal, which they are. We are well aware that voter ID laws are leeeeeeeeeegal, which from your point of view is the only issue that anyone should care about. It may surprise you to know that many things are legal which are not right, of which voter ID laws are most assuredly one. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/45 "2013-08-12T13:28:01Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Serious question: Do most people actually not possess their birth certificate? I don’t have a physical paper copy of my birth certificate, though I was born in the US and could get a copy. It would take time, money, effort, and knowledge, all of which I have, and someone else may not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/46 "2013-08-12T13:29:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Congratulations on answering a question that wasn’t asked. The point was being made about voter qualification laws such as literacy tests being illegal, which they are. We are well aware that voter ID laws are leeeeeeeeeegal, which from your point of view is the only issue that anyone should care about. It may surprise you to know that many things are legal which are not right, of which voter ID laws are most assuredly one. Did you not read post #13? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/47 "2013-08-12T13:36:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did you not read post #13? Yep. I was talking about voter qualification laws as referenced in post 9. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/48 "2013-08-12T13:45:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Yep. I was talking about voter qualification laws as referenced in post 9. Then you didn’t understand what that poster was doing. He was drawing an analogy between voter ID laws and voter qualification laws such as “taking a test before being allowed to vote”. His claim was that both types of laws are “struck down”. He was wrong, and I told him so. **Bricker** then pointed to a specific case where voter ID laws were upheld. You’re calling out **Bricker** for addressing a point that no one was making is simply wrong. **aNewLeaf** was trying to make that exact point. Post 9 is not complete without post 13 clarifying it. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/49 "2013-08-12T14:14:34Z")
Part of the problem is that the poor have difficulties with _everything_, not just voter ID requirements. Transportation issues. Incidental expense issues. Permanent address issues. Work conflict issues. Often, language barrier or literacy issues. **Any** hurdle is difficult to surpass because the poor by definition are people who are not succeeding at the single most important task in our society: having a cash income. And if any minority group is disproportionately poor, than it becomes an issue, because even absent deliberate discrimination you still have “disparate impact”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/50 "2013-08-12T15:03:54Z")
Apparently Republican politicians want voter ID laws because they think Democratic voters are stupid and dishonest. And Democratic politicians oppose voter ID laws because they agree. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/51 "2013-08-12T15:07:24Z")
cite for that last bit? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/52 "2013-08-12T15:32:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you aware that the Supreme Court ruled in _Crawford v. Marion County_ that requiring photo ID for voting does NOT offend the Constitution and upheld the law? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Congratulations on answering a question that wasn’t asked. The point was being made about voter qualification laws such as literacy tests being illegal, which they are. We are well aware that voter ID laws are leeeeeeeeeegal, which from your point of view is the only issue that anyone should care about. It may surprise you to know that many things are legal which are not right, of which voter ID laws are most assuredly one. Sure it was asked – or, more accurately, asserted, by **aNewLeaf** : > [@John Mace](#): > > Your point is that **voter ID laws** will be struck down? > [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Point is the courts strike down barriers to voting because they unfairly disenfranchise select groups of people. > This unnecessary law (can someone show evidence of widespread fraud?) does nothing to help anybody and will be struck down as being harmful to the citizenry at large. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/53 "2013-08-12T15:41:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apparently Republican politicians want voter ID laws because they think Democratic voters are stupid and dishonest. And Democratic politicians oppose voter ID laws because they agree. > > Regards, > Shodan No – neither this > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From [_The Voting Wars,_](http://www.amazon.com/Voting-Wars-Florida-Election-Meltdown/dp/0300198248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376280825&sr=1-1&keywords=the+voting+wars) by election lawyer Richard L. Hasen: > > > [@](#): > > > > What really motivates the Fraudulent Fraud Squad? _[American Spectator_ journalist Matthew] Vadum, one of the squad’s newest members, inadvertently revealed what underlay his attack on ACORN and related groups. Registering the poor to vote, he contended, is “un-American,” like “giving burglary tools to criminals.” It is profoundly anti-social and un-American to empower nonproductive segments of the population to destroy the country – which is exactly why Barack Obama zealously supports registering welfare recipients to vote. > > > > In other words, we should once again make wealth a condition of voting. Apparently this is no longer the kind of odious idea one should keep to oneself. > > Hasen’s not making that up, either. [Vadum’s article.](http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/09/registering_the_poor_to_vote_is_un-american.html) nor this > [@Lumpy](#): > > Part of the problem is that the poor have difficulties with _everything_, not just voter ID requirements. Transportation issues. Incidental expense issues. Permanent address issues. Work conflict issues. Often, language barrier or literacy issues. **Any** hurdle is difficult to surpass because the poor by definition are people who are not succeeding at the single most important task in our society: having a cash income. And if any minority group is disproportionately poor, than it becomes an issue, because even absent deliberate discrimination you still have “disparate impact”. translates to “stupid and dishonest.” Vadum – and not he alone in the GOP, I am sure – does not want the poor voting simply because they are poor; and Dems acknowledge that the poor have special problems with voting simply because they are poor. Of course, at least **you** want the poor to vote, don’t you, **Shodan?** ---
**Author:** ![historicprops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8c91f0/32.png) [@historicprops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/historicprops)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/54 "2013-08-12T15:44:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > My response is sincere; I hope you treat it as respectful. It won’t answer your question, which has been answered in dozens of threads already. > > My question to you is: Do you think that the many hundreds of thousands of Americans and hundreds of Dopers who believed such laws would suppress minority voters are misinformed? Do you think that the Republican politicians who supported such laws, _in some cases admitting almost in as many words that the purpose was to suppress Democrat-leaning votes_, were misinformed? > > Or are you confident, because of the opposition, that there was harm in such laws as proposed recently, but just want to have the harm explained to you more clearly? > > I hope this doesn’t sound snarky. My question is very sincere. If you think that the hundreds of Dopers, etc. are all misinformed, I’ll ask your opinion on how this misinformation came about, and whether it served some political purpose. Think you for your response, and your questions. First, allow me to apologize for creating what I have learned is a redundant thread. I only found this site yesterday, and I saw a chance to have answered, a question which had been running through my mind. To answer your question, the only person I was assuming was uninformed, was me. In looking at the idea as I had heard it presented, I could not see how such legislation, in itself, could be suppressive, and so I did not understand the opposition to it. However, I have been fortunate, here, in that my question was treated as the sincere question it was, rather than as an assertion of an opinion. Given the recent polarization of American politics, I have come to look upon any position as being potentially partisan, until I learn of the actual arguments. Unfortunately, many people vehemently oppose the other party’s legislation, when the same legislation, if propose by their own party, would receive their enthusiastic support. In looking at Voter ID laws, I could not readily see the dangers, and based upon responses here, it looks like the danger is not in the legislation itself, but in the political shysterism and gamesmanship that would become possible, once this legislation were in place, not unlike Gerrymandering. Responders have given good examples of how trickery has already been used in cases like this, and so I consider that at least that side of the case has been proven, The other half is whether the benefits would be worth the risks, and so it would require an epidemic of such voter fraud to justify this legislation, and so far, I haven’t seen any real evidence of such fraud, even though the two parties are fond of accusing each other, after every election. Another point I had not considered, is that even if this legislation could not possibly lead to suppression, if there is also no such fraud, then legislation becomes a waste of time and resources. I’d like to thank everyone who took the time to respond to my question, I now feel that I am better informed on the pertinent factors. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/55 "2013-08-12T15:55:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **John Mace** : > > Chronos is a physicist. He’ll understand exactly what that [the word “orthogonal”] means. Indeed, I didn’t even notice that you were using a particularly fancy word. I saw you effectively communicating what you meant. Now, as it happens, I disagree with what you said: In so far as people voting multiple times is a problem that’s supposed to be solved by voter ID laws, the ink-on-the-thumb method addresses the same problem as voter ID laws. There are other problems that voter ID could solve (such as people voting who are not registered), but those are already addressed by other solutions like having a big book listing everyone registered in the precinct at the polling station, which I think most places already do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/56 "2013-08-12T15:58:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Indeed, I didn’t even notice that you were using a particularly fancy word. I saw you effectively communicating what you meant. > > Now, as it happens, I disagree with what you said: In so far as people voting multiple times is a problem that’s supposed to be solved by voter ID laws, the ink-on-the-thumb method addresses the same problem as voter ID laws. There are other problems that voter ID could solve (such as people voting who are not registered), but those are already addressed by other solutions like having a big book listing everyone registered in the precinct at the polling station, which I think most places already do. Indeed – and as I’ve said before, I’d give up photo ID if we could agree to capture the voter’s thumbprint when he casts his ballot. That proves a direct link between person and voting, sufficient to prosecute someone who votes illegally, which is the only goal I’m pushing. There are liberals hereabouts, though, who oppose this solution, for reasons unclear to me. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/57 "2013-08-12T16:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Indeed – and as I’ve said before, I’d give up photo ID if we could agree to capture the voter’s thumbprint when he casts his ballot. Still nobody has come up with evidence that there’s a problem with people voting multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/58 "2013-08-12T16:06:47Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Still nobody has come up with evidence that there’s a problem with people voting multiple times. That’s not the problem. The problem is people voting when they’re not permitted to vote. This may happen innocently, in fact. A non-citizen may not realize the vote is limited to citizens; a convicted felon may not realize that his conviction lost him the right to vote. But their votes, however much they are cast in good faith, are not legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/59 "2013-08-12T16:20:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not the problem. The problem is people voting when they’re not permitted to vote. > > This may happen innocently, in fact. A non-citizen may not realize the vote is limited to citizens; a convicted felon may not realize that his conviction lost him the right to vote. > > But their votes, however much they are cast in good faith, are not legitimate. I hope we can at least agree that the use of things like [caging lists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caging_list) is a solution far worse than the problem, if any, and that organizations like [True the Vote](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_the_Vote) should not be allowed even to try it. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/60 "2013-08-12T16:22:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not the problem. The problem is people voting when they’re not permitted to vote. Is there any evidence this is a widespread problem? And as a followup, is there evidence that the answer is National ID cards? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968.md?page=4)