# How do voter ID laws suppress minority votes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968 "2013-08-11T22:09:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/101 "2013-08-14T20:11:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No way. You’re wrong. You’re the Mayor, in fact, of Wrongville, and people far and wide read about your wrongness and shake their heads, amazed at how much wong can be crammed into a single person’s head. Specifically about voter ID laws being bad? Or am I also wrong when I say Jim Crow laws were bad? And I’ve never had any wongs crammed in my head. Nemo don’t swing that way. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/102 "2013-08-14T20:11:47Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > As you said, the necessary photo ID can be obtained for free from the state’s DMV or licensing department. In Texas, driver’s licenses are issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS). > > So, here is how you limit minority voting using Voter ID laws: close the DPS offices in minority areas. Claim (maybe even reasonably) that people in those areas don’t have cars, so they’re not coming in for driver’s licenses often enough to warrant keeping the office open. Also, set the remaining office’s hours such that ordinary working folks can’t get in to use them. > > Then, there is the matter of getting the “free” ID. To get one in Texas, you need a birth certificate. In Texas, this costs $24. That is quite noticeably “not free”. I live in a county with fewer than 10,000 residents. There is no DPS license office in my county. (It is not a minority area. However, the people with mobility issues ARE minorities. We white guys have cars.) The nearest office is 30 minutes away, or one hour round-trip. So, that is about $8 in gas, plus an $7.25 in minimum wage time. Once you get to the office, you’ve got a line to deal with. Say, that’s another hour. So far, that “free” ID has cost our intrepid voter $47. Of course, all of that is assuming that he/she brought the required documents to the DPS office on the first trip. What are the odds of that? > > That is how you use Voter ID laws to suppress minority voters. Hmmmm…so, given that national elections are held every two years, you are saying that someone can’t come up with $47 and a ride at some point in that time period? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/103 "2013-08-14T20:14:12Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Hmmmm…so, given that national elections are held every two years, you are saying that someone can’t come up with $47 and a ride at some point in that time period? Why should any citizen have to come up with an extra $47 to vote? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/104 "2013-08-14T20:39:02Z")
[http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/08/14/2465761/texas-brags-to-court-that-it-gerrymandered-to-increase-the-republican-partys-electoral-prospects/](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/08/14/2465761/texas-brags-to-court-that-it-gerrymandered-to-increase-the-republican-partys-electoral-prospects/) By way of our good friends at ThinkProgress, we can keep up with the latest Republican shenanigans as they compete in the interstate Olympics for mean and stupid. Flashlight on Texas, land of contrasts! **Texas Brags To Court That It Drew District Lines To ‘Increase The Republican Party’s Electoral Prospects’** > [@](#): > > It’s not exactly a big secret that Texas Republicans drew their state’s district lines in order to maximize the weight of Republican voters and minimize the voting strength of Democrats. Still, this isn’t normally something that a state’s top legal officer openly admits to in a brief filed with a federal court. Nevertheless, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott (R) is so confident that the courts will let Texas Republicans get away with rigging elections that he openly brags about his fellow Republicans’ efforts to do so in an official court filing. According to a brief Abbott filed earlier this month, “\*n 2011, both houses of the Texas Legislature were controlled by large Republican majorities, and their redistricting decisions were designed to increase the Republican Party’s electoral prospects at the expense of the Democrats.” > > The reason for this admission is that Texas is currently defending against a lawsuit seeking to bring its voting laws back under federal supervision in the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision neutering the Voting Rights Act. A federal court recently found that Texas engaged in intentional race discrimination when it last drew its district lines, and a still-standing provision of the Voting Rights Act allows states that engage in such discrimination to be subject to federal supervision before they can enact new voting laws. Texas is now trying to defend against this attempt to bring them back under federal oversight by saying they weren’t engaged in racial gerrymandering at all — they were merely trying to rig elections so that Democrats would lose!.. That’s right! Texas isn’t engaged in racial discrimination, perish the thought! Texas is merely attempting to legislate a permanent Republican majority, which is _political_ rottenness, and not _racial_ rottenness! A fine distinction, to be sure. Sorry, didn’t mean to distract from the crucial issue of how good a thing voter id is by pointing out, yet again, that the Republicans are openly and brazenly trying to stack the deck. Time for someone to point out, yet again, that you need a picture id to buy heroin, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/105 "2013-08-14T20:50:27Z")
Voter ID laws only suppress minority votes because minorities are far more likely not to have the required ID than the general population. The starting point is different. Perhaps the issue would become clearer to you if they said that the only acceptable form of voter ID was a food stamp card or an ID issued by any check cashing establishment. How do you think that would affect people’s voter turnout of different demographics? Its not an accident that they are going after the least common form of voter fraud withy voter ID requirements (requirements that monority voters are far more likely not to already have than white voters), instead of the much more common absentee ballot voter fraud. Its a form of voter suppression, its short sighted but when you think you have a monopoly on truth and a direct line to GOD, you always think you only need one more election cycle to fix everything. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > There’s the rub. Make the ID easy to get. My Thai wife has to show ID when she votes, and there’s no question she won’t have some form, because having at least a national ID card is required by law. I agree but very few from either side of the aisle seems to want this. > [@Bricker](#): > > Are you aware that the Supreme Court ruled in _Crawford v. Marion County_ that requiring photo ID for voting does NOT offend the Constitution and upheld the law? And they have changed their minds when they realized that the underlying assumptions of their rulings were false. To be fair, we have not seen the sort of vote suppression that Republicans had hoped for but wait until you don’t have a black guy on the ballot and see if people go to the trouble of getting an ID that they don’t need for any purpose other than to vote. > [@Shodan](#): > > Apparently Republican politicians want voter ID laws because they think Democratic voters are stupid and dishonest. And Democratic politicians oppose voter ID laws because they agree. > > Regards, > Shodan No Republican politicians want voter ID laws because they want to suppress the votes of people who don’t have IDs (a population with a disproportionate number of minorities). > [@Bricker](#): > > Indeed – and as I’ve said before, I’d give up photo ID if we could agree to capture the voter’s thumbprint when he casts his ballot. That proves a direct link between person and voting, sufficient to prosecute someone who votes illegally, which is the only goal I’m pushing. There are liberals hereabouts, though, who oppose this solution, for reasons unclear to me. who is opposed to that? Are they concerned about the anonymity of the vote? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > State governments are easier to dominate and corrupt. Both for the Republicans themselves and organizations such as corporations. The same goes even more so for country and city governments. Therefore, they prefer local government because local = corrupt. +1 Local doesn’t always equal corrupt but the transparency, efficiency and competence at the federal level are far superior to transparency, efficiency and competence at the state level almost across the spectrum and this contrast is usually even more visible at the local levels. > [@elucidator](#): > > And hasn’t friend **Bricker** already offered a firm “tsk-tsk!” to Republicans for being coy and disingenuous? Bricker is trying to disassociate one form of voter suppression from all the other forms and pretending that it isn’t all part of a concerted effort to suppress minority voting. > [@](#): > > And just think how the voter confidence of black voters is being enhanced! Well, the attack on their voting rights incited a pretty strong reaction from the black community in 2012. Nothing gets you as riled up and activated as when someone tries to take away your rights, just look at what happened when they tried to ban Assault Weapons (:D), it riled up gun owners and the NRA saw the most new members per month in their history. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/106 "2013-08-14T20:55:29Z")
Assault Weapons Ban! Slowly, I turned… ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/107 "2013-08-15T04:47:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree but very few from either side of the aisle seems to want this. And it’s a disgrace. Cecil pointed out in one of his columns that Social Security cards are in effect a national ID, but no one can bring themselves to call it one. Hell, just slap a photo on it and call it what it is! (Yes, I know foreigners can sometimes get them too, I think if they have to pay US taxes for any reason. My Thai wife has one, and it’s stamped “Not Valid for Employment.” She had to pay taxes on her scholarship to the U of Hawaii. But this can be worked around.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/108 "2013-08-15T05:50:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Voter ID laws only suppress minority votes because minorities are far more likely not to have the required ID than the general population. The starting point is different. > > Perhaps the issue would become clearer to you if they said that the only acceptable form of voter ID was a food stamp card or an ID issued by any check cashing establishment. How do you think that would affect people’s voter turnout of different demographics? I’ve already offered my suggestion. Have a special voter ID card. Everyone would be issued one before an election. Every state would have an office issuing these cards. (No more than one per state in order to cut down on government spending.) And to be most convenient the offices would be located in the middle of the largest city in each state. So we’d have offices in the downtown neighbourhoods of Manhattan, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Miami, Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, etc. And anyone who wants to vote would just have to travel from wherever they live to these neighbourhoods. This is a neutral and impartial program open to everyone and I can’t imagine it would have any effect on who votes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/109 "2013-08-15T05:53:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apparently Republican politicians want voter ID laws because they think Democratic voters are stupid and dishonest. And Democratic politicians oppose voter ID laws because they agree. Or Republican politicians want voter ID laws because they think they can rig the system against Democratic voters. And Democratic politicians oppose voter ID laws because they agree. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/110 "2013-08-15T15:45:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve already offered my suggestion. Have a special voter ID card. Everyone would be issued one before an election. > > Every state would have an office issuing these cards. (No more than one per state in order to cut down on government spending.) And to be most convenient the offices would be located in the middle of the largest city in each state. So we’d have offices in the downtown neighbourhoods of Manhattan, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Miami, Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, etc. And anyone who wants to vote would just have to travel from wherever they live to these neighbourhoods. > > This is a neutral and impartial program open to everyone and I can’t imagine it would have any effect on who votes. Ok. Just get the state legislatures to approve it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/111 "2013-08-15T15:50:29Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > If someone tried to vote using my name, at the correct location, the judges would say: “It looks like you already voted, come back next election.” > The Voter Fraud As Described Above wouldn’t be possible. Not necessarily. The person who used my name to vote got there before me so I was the one not allowed to vote. Your response? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/112 "2013-08-15T16:08:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Bricker** : > > State-wide elections have happened in living memory that have been decided by less than 150 votes. > > When Washington State selects a governor based on a margin of 129 votes (after the first count was 261 votes the other way!) it’s clear that even a small number of illegal votes cast by unqualified persons may have swayed the result. To be clear, here, **Bricker** , since I’m not sure what your assumptions are: Are you here positing a conspiracy by on order of 100 individuals to steal the election? Or are you positing that on order of ten thousand individuals acting separately voted illegally? > [@](#): > > No way. You’re wrong. You’re the Mayor, in fact, of Wrongville, and people far and wide read about your wrongness and shake their heads, amazed at how much wong can be crammed into a single person’s head. Does the law in fact formally instate **Little Nemo** as the mayor of that municipality? Presumably so, or you would not, by your own claim, be able to make a statement as to his rightness or wrongness. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/113 "2013-08-15T16:38:19Z")
Bricker, do you deny that the purpose of these voter ID laws is to reduce democratic votes rather than eliminate fraud? If so then why aren’t there more initiatives to secure absentee voting where voting fraud is much easier and more dangerous? I know that you would support a fingerprint type system that would make voting even more secure and wouldn’t disenfranchise anyone, or include IDs along with voting material. Why aren’t these ideas supported by Republicans. Also why did the NC voter law include such provisions as preventing 17-18 year olds from per-registering for elections that they will be eligible for, and cutting down times for early voting, which in no way make voting more secure? If you do agree that discouraging of minority voters is the goal then how is this any better than the literacy tests of the Jim Crow era, which were legal at the time, made sense (who wants people who can’t even read deciding who should be president) and had great popular support? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/114 "2013-08-15T16:40:39Z")
So, once again, Republican poker. We get five cards, they get seven, all of ours are face up and they get to draw twice. But that’s OK, because whats important is that we assure that the cards aren’t marked. Because its so important that we know that the game is fair. Sorta. Kinda. I suppose it is somewhat reassuring that so many tighty righty refuse to discuss anything but voter id and what a swell thing it is. Shows that some tiny shred of civic decency has yet to be snuffed out by a craven lust to win. I wonder if they will even notice when its gone? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/115 "2013-08-15T16:50:14Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Not necessarily. The person who used my name to vote got there before me so I was the one not allowed to vote. Your response? Please tell me more about this. Did someone forge your signature? How did this happen? Where I vote, to pull this off, someone would have to know where I live, and be able to forge my signature. What actions did you take when this happened to you? What did the election judges and/or the police have to say about it? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/116 "2013-08-15T16:52:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Not necessarily. The person who used my name to vote got there before me so I was the one not allowed to vote. Your response? I suspect that you would submit a provisional ballot. If the results of the election is close enough for it to matter, then your signature, and that of your doppelganger are compared to the signature on the registration and which ever is closest is counted. However, this generally doesn’t happen because there is next to no identity theft fraud. If this did happen a lot then the Republicans would be onto something and we wouldn’t be having this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/117 "2013-08-15T17:53:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To be clear, here, **Bricker** , since I’m not sure what your assumptions are: Are you here positing a conspiracy by on order of 100 individuals to steal the election? Or are you positing that on order of ten thousand individuals acting separately voted illegally? Neither. I’d very surprised to discover any kind of conspiracy in play. But I think it’s highly likely that more than 100 individuals voted illegally in that election, either because they’re not citizens, not entitled to vote through past convictions, or registered to vote in multiple jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/118 "2013-08-15T18:03:45Z")
And presenting an ID would have prevented exactly zero of those people, registered voters all or they wouldn’t be on the list, from voting. If they actually existed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/119 "2013-08-15T18:04:58Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Bricker, do you deny that the purpose of these voter ID laws is to reduce democratic votes rather than eliminate fraud? Yes, I deny it. Having answered your question, I should point out that the “purpose” of a hydroelectric dam financing law that passes when 100 legislators vote for it is not all that clear. Thirty may have voted for the law out of a belief it was wise public policy, ten out of an obligation to pay back the vote for the highway project they asked for last month, and sixty because the Whip told them the Speaker’s committee assignments next term would depend on who cooperated - and the Speaker’s motive was the envelope of fat cash given to him last night by the leading candidates for the award of the dam construction contract. In that case, the “purpose” of the dam is … what? The answer is that the purpose is to finance a hydroelectric dam, and the individual motivations of the legislators is utterly irrelevant. > [@](#): > > If so then why aren’t there more initiatives to secure absentee voting where voting fraud is much easier and more dangerous? I know that you would support a fingerprint type system that would make voting even more secure and wouldn’t disenfranchise anyone, or include IDs along with voting material. Why aren’t these ideas supported by Republicans. Why aren’t those ideas supported by Democrats? Lefty people on this very board have refused to go along with the fingerprint idea as “oppressive” or some such nonsense. > [@](#): > > Also why did the NC voter law include such provisions as preventing 17-18 year olds from per-registering for elections that they will be eligible for, and cutting down times for early voting, which in no way make voting more secure? I don’t know. I think the unwillingness to highlight those aspects of the NC law is highly suspicious. There may well be legitimate reasons for these moves. But in my opinion, someone who has legitimate reasons typically doesn’t hesitate to advance them, so i conclude that the motives for those changes are probably not legitimate, and I absolutely condemn such actions. But that doesn’t mean the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. There ARE good reasons to support Voter ID. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968/120 "2013-08-15T20:46:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … so i conclude that the motives for those changes are probably not legitimate, and I absolutely condemn such actions… Good for you, hoss! Proud of ya! Naturally, I conclude that this is largely a result of my kindly and avuncular scolding, but false modesty has never been a problem for me. Or any modesty whatever, for that matter. But where does that leave us? If the Republicans win in the states where they are pulling this happy horseshit, what faith can we have in the results? Will you able to say it reflects the will of the people? And what next? What _won’t_ they do? I assume you hang with some Republicans, what do they say about this shit? Are you but a lone voice howling in the wilderness? How many honest conservatives are left? Enough to make a difference? I haven’t heard of any. Are there no Republicans of stature who will stand against this shit? Still, good on you. Can’t say I _know_ that wasn’t easy for you, but I’m thinking its a pretty good bet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-voter-id-laws-suppress-minority-votes/665968.md?page=7)