How do we decrease the number of lawyers?

Despite not being a lawyer, I value their expertise and do not see lawyers as despicable. I do sympathize with part of your complaint. The real question you need to ask is why are there so many people hiring lawyers and keeping them all in business? Some of the increased “need” for lawyers seems to me to be driven by a society that is increasingly unwilling to accept personal responsibility (like somebody should need a written warning on a take-out coffee cup that the contents are hot and may cause injury if spilled :smack: ) and looking for someone else to take the blame / pay the cost etc. If you want to decrease the number of lawyers, work on that problem first. Also, make it less socially acceptable to sue one’s way to a solution, rather than negotiate.

Nobody said the solution would be easy …

I smoke two joints before I kill a law, and then I smoke two more.
I smoke two joints when Congress meets
And two at recess time
I smoke two joints on election day, and then I smoke two more
Smoke two joints…

:slight_smile:

Like I said in the other thread…there are two main ways people solve disputes; by law, and by violence, and solving disputes by law is a lot better, in my opinion than solving disputes by violence. But two things. First, the law isn’t as hard to understand as you seem to suggest it is. Sure, you need to read it carefuly, and sometimes there are specialized terms you have to learn, just like in any discipline there are specialized terms.

Sure, though, the law probably could be simplified some, but part of the reason it is complex is that special circumstances, or loopholes, or special cases exist that the law then needs to be changed to cover.

Lets take a really simple idea…that a person shouldn’t kill another person, and if he does, the state should punish him somehow. That’s a pretty basic idea, and almost every society, almost every culture, has come up with the idea that people shouldn’t be allowed to kill other people willy-nilly. So, now lets turn that into a law.

When we’re turning this into a law, we first realize that maybe there are times it’s ok to kill someone, and the state shouldn’t punish you for doing it. We might want to say it’s ok, for example, for a soldier to kill the enemy in wartime, or for you to kill someone if that’s the only way to stop them from killing you or someone else. What if you kill someone by accident? We might want to say that you shouldn’t be punished for that. But what if you kill someone by being reckless? Maybe you should be punished for that, but maybe not as severely as if you did it on purpose. We also might want to say that if you plan out somebody’s death, that might be more serious than if you murder someone because you got angry with them, but didn’t plan it out first. So we might say, “Ok, we’ll set punishments differently in all these different circumstances.”

Ok, so now we’ve defined murder, but our problems are just beginning. Lets say that we think you committed murder. Now we need to find some way to see if that’s true. We might want to leave that up to a jury to decide, but now we need rules about how to pick a jury. And to get the fairest result, we might want to make sure that nobody on the jury is biased for you or against you, so we need to make rules about that.

So, now that we have a jury, we need to decide on rules of evidence…we need to decide what’s acceptable to show that you did or didn’t commit the crime. If we find out that a gun you own fired the bullet that killed the person, is that good evidence? If we find out you said to your friend “I’m going to kill him”, is that good evidence? If we find out that your friend told somebody else, “jrfranchi is going to kill John Doe”, is that good evidence? What if you’ve confessed to the police? What if the police hurt you or threatened you to get you to confess? Maybe we need to write laws protecting people who have been accused of crimes from things like that. All of these things require rules and laws too.

So lets say you’ve been convicted and sentenced to prison, but you don’t think that’s fair, so you want the verdict overrulled. So now we need rules about appeal. What sorts of things are enough to get a verdict changed, and what aren’t? We need to decide that.

So, now, starting from a simple idea, that we should punish people who kill other people, we’ve created a whole lot of law. And that’s just one thing. We also want to make sure that people don’t cheat each other people, that employers don’t exploit their employees, that the environment is protected, that people can eat food that’s safe, and so on. All of these things require laws, and so they stack up.

I’d just like to say that Captain Amazing put this very well. Real life is full of special cases where a blanket one liner law may provide justice in the most blatantly obvious case, but will be immensely unjust for everyone else. Thus, lots and lots of complicated special cases. It’s complicated because life is complicated.

you are fortunate to live in a country where you have the right to a lawyer.

While were at it, let’s not spend the money with pictures of lawyers on it. Burn it or give it to me, a lawyer in training.

Let’s also realize that many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers. I suppose your gripe is a common one for those who no longer choose to blame politicians for their shitty lives but have to blame someone. Hey buddy, why not start with the CEO’s and politicians?

George Bush MBA
Bill Frist M.D.

Damn those non- lawyers running our country into the ground.

While I didn’t go law school, I received an $100k legal education. That was our legal costs in a lawsuit which my former company brought againt an American company for breach of contract. Our Japanese customer agreed to purchase a product with the promise of specific future development. The US manufacturer agreed to the development and then failed to follow through. We were stuck in the middle, and it cost more than $1 million in damages.

The US manufacturer refused (1) the promised developmented and (2) any responsibility for the damages, claiming that we were out of line. Unfortunately, the documentation wasn’t the best, without a specific contract (the initial sale had occurred before I joined the company), but we did have a pretty good paper trail.

We eventually settled out of court, but this is where we could have been completely lost without the legal system and our attorneys. I think that there are problems with the system, and the legal costs were higher than what I would like, but the problem was with the president of the US company. That company made a promise, broke it and then tried to wessel out of it.

Some of the people I’ve talked to about this talk about the damn lawyers, but rarely do people talk about the damn businessman (of which I am one, so maybe people are being polite :wink: ).

I agree with serious lark that there are too many people who don’t take personal responsibility, but the infamous McDonald’s coffee incident is a case where there is more than what first meets the eye. While the jury first awarded $2.9 million dollars, the actual amout finally received was much, much less.

McDonalds coffee was served at a higher temperature than other stores, above 180 C; and had had least 700 reports of coffee burns ranging from mild to third degree. They knew this but decided to not reduce the temperature. The woman’s extensive burns had required hospitalization for 7 days, as well as shin grafts; for which McDonalds offered $800 for pain and medical bills. The plantiff offered to settle a more reasonable amount, a mediator suggested $225k but McDonalds insisted on going to court. Again, the villain here would seem to be McDonalds but the lawyers get the bad rap.

The most straightforward way to trim the thicket of laws is to have them expire in a reasonable period (twenty years?). Laws that are still considered worthwhile could be readopted (by passing a new law saying the same thing with a new expiration date).

I think this is a terrible idea. Firstly, I’d imagine you’d need a whole bunch of new laws to control this process :stuck_out_tongue:

Secondly, can you imagine the cost? Can you imagine the additional work the lawmakers would have to do? I’m sure you’d increase the number of votes required and billed submitted and resubmitted by an order of magnitude. Given their lack lustre performance, and what appears to be a habit of not really reading many of the bills, I’m sure the senate would find this practically impossible. In fact, given this and my first point I project far more lawyers bickering than ever before!

Thirdly, is the default behaviour for a law to expire? What happens if they accidently forget to resubmit a very worthwhile law. I forsee, uh, interesting times if the public at large suddenly found out the law that says it’s wrong to kill people had accidently expired. If you think you’ve seen road rage now … :wink:

Fourthly, are the sort of laws that would be culled under such a system really the one’s that are causing a problem? If a law is invoked in a case it almost by definition is worthwhile, bearing in mind that at some point in the past it was voted on and approved. If a law is really ridiculous in a modern context I say the senate should actively vote to cancel it.

No, just two. (Rule 1: All laws shall carry a sunset date not more than twenty years from the date on which they take effect. Rule 2: All current laws shall sunset twenty years after the adoption of Rule 2.)

The real practical problem is that, to avoid being trivially superceded, these rules would need to be a constitutional amendment.

More likely, it would lead to a redirection of existing efforts (people can only do so much). I consider this a feature, not a bug, as it reduces the amount of new rules coming down the pike and thereby forces weakly justified ones to be culled.

I’m sure that the people who benefit from any given law that is about to expire will remind them. :slight_smile:

Even a cursory review of government abuses shows that the fact that a law is actively used does not demonstrate its merit.

As for the suggestion that legislature should actively prune antiquated laws: to quote a wise man: “Can you imagine the cost? Can you imagine the additional work the lawmakers would have to do?” :wink:

The unfortunate reality is that antiquated laws tend to be left on the books to be dusted off when the people in power want to harass somebody.

Thank you everyone, I was hoping we could get past the mindless defense of you’ll only dislike lawyers until you need one.

I live in NJ & lived in NYC. I can’t cite statistics, but I have heard that we have more lawyers per capita than anywhere but DC. Maybe the amount of Lawyers in Wyoming is ok, I don’t know. There are so many frivolous law suits in my part of the country it is hard not to want to see a reduction in Lawyers and laws.
My sister’s car was hit by another lady. Her Brother was a lawyer and they sued my sister. Now thanks to the lawyer my sister had found through a friend, she won the suit. She was still out money and time. It was a frivolous law suit and never should have been allowed.
I think most everybody has similar stories.
I worked for a hospital once upon a time and not just the non-stop suits against doctors but also at least twice a year, someone would slip on an icy patch and sue the hospital.
I am part of a non-profit environmental group. We pay more in insurance for our wooded boat program than all our other cost put together. This is because a sister group was basically sued out of existence when a lady slipped get off the boat at a dock.
I also really resented that I “needed” a lawyer both times I bought a house. This is a situation that calls for a fair witness or notary not lawyers. They have managed to “obfuscate” the language of the transaction so much that you can’t follow it. It is almost like a protection racket. Pay one of us or we will really make you pay.
I don’t think lawyers are bad people. I just think there is way too many. I think a huge intellectual resource is being wasted.
I know opening the thread with 10 quotes putting lawyers in a bad light was confrontational, but it also shows the problem has been around since the founding of our country.
Maybe some of our dopers from other lands could express there views on the legal system in there countries.
We need to better our system.

Well, I’m still highly skeptical. In particular, regarding this idea. An analogy:

As a computer programmer, I understand full well the horrors involved in completely rewriting something from scratch. There is a lot of hard learned experience about special cases and technical peculiarities built into the years of tweaking things and solving issues that come up to get it just right.

We have in effect thousands of years of experience building up the laws as they currently stand. That doens’t mean they’re perfect, just that they really do cover 99.999% of situations. If you’re talking about letting them expire, you need to do that at a relatively low granularity. If the senate feels specific laws are valid they’re resubmitted. But all of it, just some of it? What if there are issues with certain clauses?

Also, I think you severely misunderestimate how much effort it would be to recycle the entire body of law every twenty years. Not that I’m a lawyer, and perhaps you are, but you would still have a very difficult time convincing me :wink:

And another thing, when I say “actively”, I misspoke my intentions. Sure, if some junior senator is all gung ho, great. But I was really thinking of strange laws being brought to attention as they come up.

I guess the bottom line is if 99% of our laws are ridiculous, sure, maybe it’s not the worst idea in the world. But I don’t think that is the case.

Well, that’s just it, isn’t it? How is the system supposed to discern the frivolous suits from the meritorious suits without admitting them to the courtroom?

Why, then, do you follow this with a citation of all the times that you, personally, were involved with lawyers and how that wasn’t fun? Do you understand that it appears as if a significant part of your antipathy stems from subjective, anecdotal experience, rather than from an objective perspective?

Moreover, do you understand that, based on the small number of facts you’ve given here, there isn’t a person on the board who could legitimately opine that each lawsuit you’ve listed was frivolous? Lawyers are hired to help clients navigate the court system. We can’t take cases if there isn’t a good faith basis to argue that our position is supported by the facts or the law, or a good faith argument for an extension of the law. Frankly, this is the most puzzling:

Who should pay to recompense the person injured? No one? The person who slipped on the ice? How is that more fair than making a business responsible for maintaining its property? Why wouldn’t a lawyer take that case?

If that were true, then it would not have been allowed. In short, it’s great and all that you believe in your sister, but there are always two sides to a story. If the suit brought against her were frivolous, it would have gone away quickly on a motion to dismiss, motion for judgment on the pleadings, or motion for summary judgment. So perhaps things weren’t as one-sided as you thought?

Or move to one of the many states that do not require attorney involvement in a transaction. Or be your own attorney. You don’t need one, as long as you understand what you’re doing. You don’t? Well, then, before you buy your next house, educate yourself. If you’re not willing to learn what you need to do the lawyer’s job, don’t complain. Ditto the plumber, the auto mechanic, etc.

Ok. Let’s get rid of some of them. How? Make the bar exam harder? Ok. It’s been done. Didn’t help. What now?

Putting the quotations was not “confrontational,” it was simply annoying, particularly since you don’t seem to understand what the quotations are saying. Perhaps you should look at the quotation from Shakespeare (your number 5), and see what it meant in context. Then, perhaps, look up the word “irony.”

Or consider this one you quoted: "“Deceive not thy physician, confesasor, nor lawyer.” What do you think that means? Does that mean that doctors, priests and lawyers are untrustworthy? Or do you think it means that these are people who can help you if you level with them?

Do you understand how the wholesale quotation of a variety of people who happened to say the word “lawyer” doesn’t support your thesis? Although, in fairness, I don’t really get your thesis, so perhaps some of the quotations do support it. You titled your thread, “How do we decrease the number of lawyers?” That’s easy. Make us all raise our rates so no one else can afford us. Wait! That won’t work! Lawyers are professionals, so we actually donate our time to people who can’t afford us. Limit the number of licenses given out? Great! Now I can raise my rates again, and more people can’t afford me. How does that help?

One final point, to Cliffy: as to the burglar suing a homeowner for injuries in a robbery, I believe he may be referring to the Iowa case involving a spring-gun. Hardly shocking that if you rig a spring-gun to shoot anyone coming into your abandoned home you might be liable for the damages, since spring-guns have been illegal since before the US split from the UK.

Actually, I think there are too many lawyers; or more appropriately, people who might otherwise have found a more fulfilling career in other forms of public service, science, engineering, or medicine are being driven away, and law is a relatively easy field to enter. (Yes, I realize it can also be very hard work.)

Of course, I also think lawyers have a bad habit of using BS. By BS, I mean that they use a ten-dollar word where a 10-cent word will do. Yes, I also realize that they often use words with specific legal meanings.

Fewer lawyers? I’m all for it. More money for me!

Mwa hah hah hah ha!

(Please don’t tell me a serious response is warranted for this thread, 'cause you ain’t gonna get it from me.)

Only thing is, I don’t think it’s that mindless :slight_smile:

But it’s not clear how less lawyers would resolve the issues that you were having. A women tried to work the system with a frivilous lawsuit. And she failed. The problem is, how do you tell that the lawsuit is frivilous or not until the law is already involved?

Compre that to happens in some places – after an auto accident, both drivers flee the scene as soon as possible, because no one wants to face the angry mob that collects to do their brand of justice.

I already have learned how to Program computers, build PC’s, fix older cars, do basic plumbing & HVAC work. I do ship or home wiring, I can put up sheetrock walls, fencing and hedges. I can fix Locks and many other household repair jobs.
I can build tables and toys out of wood. I am an expert at only a few of these skills but I can do many things.
I don’t think it is fair that I can’t clearly understand my closing papers which are 200 pages thick when all was done. This can not really be necessary.
If you don’t think law is too complicated, I can’t even communicate with you on the subject.
Lawyers have done many good things. Lawyers have been some of our best politicians and statesmen. But I really feel the whole system is out of control.
I give you one more quote that I am sure you’ll think is meaningless. When I was taking engineering in college, one of my Professors told us this.
The CEO of Tokyo was addressing a Automotive conference.
“When the US passed pollution control laws in the 70’s, we hired 400 more engineers to meet the requirement, Chrysler hire 400 lawyers to fight the law”

“I have no hope of convincing anyone that I’m right, and I know it.”