# How Do We Determine the True Character of a Religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136 "2015-05-29T18:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JVDaly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@JVDaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JVDaly)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/1 "2015-05-29T18:25:00Z")
Inspired by [this](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750455) thread. How do you define the true character of a religion? Specifically, how do you ascertain how morally virtuous it is? Do you use the scriptures? Or do you judge its nature by the actions of its followers? For example, there’s an ancient and venerable, but little known, religion called ‘Dalyism’ which is totally legit and 100% not made up. It goes a bit like this: **The Commandments of Dalyism** 1. Don’t eat trans-fats. 2. Don’t give away any spoilers for Game of Thrones. 3. Kill a left-handed woman every second Thursday of the month. 4. Don’t put squirrels down your pants for the purposes of gambling. 5. Don’t kill anybody. Now, you might notice that there’s a slight contradiction between commandments 3 and 5. Well, Dalyists worldwide have struggled with this for millennia. The vast majority of them, probably about 99.9% simply ignore rule 3. They argue that rule 5 supersedes it, or that whatever cultural relevance rule 3 may have once had is lost to the ages. However, a small minority of people take the reverse position. They argue that, obviously, rule 5 doesn’t apply to left-handed women, otherwise why have rule 3 at all? Also, rule 3 is higher up the list, so it’s got to be more important. It seems like a stalemate. So how do we judge this religion? Do we look at the behaviour of the vast majority of its adherents? Or do we look at what the text actually says? I personally think that the best way to determine the ‘true’ nature (and by ‘true nature’ I mean moral character; since all religions are, at their core, ethical guides) of a religion _as intended by its creators_ is to look at the scripture. If a religion contains bad ideas (like rule 3), and it can be reasonably argued that God wants its follows to adhere to these bad ideas, then the religion is, to the extent that these bad ideas have the capacity to cause harm, a bad religion. The actions of the majority don’t matter if the actions of the minority can be reasonably justified using scripture. In the case of Dalyism, it can be argued that it is the violent minority who are incorrect (as per rule 5), but it can never possibly be established as a matter of fact. It can only ever be a matter of interpretation. Dalyism is, therefore, a bad religion, no matter what the majority of its followers do, because its scriptures allow for an interpretation which is immoral and harmful. The parallels with modern religions are, I hope, obvious. Christianity, for example, contains moral and immoral ideas. On the one hand Jesus said “Judge not lest ye be judged” and “Let he who is without sin etc…”. On the other hand, God clearly does (forgive my bluntness) actually “hate fags”. He really does. God has a beef with gay people and there’s no two ways about it. Leviticus 18:22, Deuteronomy 23:17, Kings 14:24, Romans 1:26-28, and Timothy 1:10 _to name but a few_. all condemn homosexuality. It can therefore be fairly argued that Jesus didn’t have gay people in mind when he was going about preaching love and forgiveness and QED, a “true” Christian ought to be homophobic. One can do a similar thing with Islam. The number of verses mocking, cursing, condemning, and excoriating unbelievers is so high that it’s hardly possible to list them all. As such, violence against unbelievers is easily justified. Therefore, to the extent that bad ideas proliferate in those scriptures, and to the extent that these bad ideas have the capacity to motivate people to cause harm, those religions are bad religions, no matter what their followers actually do. P.S. - One might well make the opposite case; that a religion is good to the extent that it contains good ideas. However, I don’t think that argument holds water because it presupposes that we can’t be good without God, which is obviously not true. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/2 "2015-05-29T19:45:59Z")
You can’t; religions don’t have moral character. Only humans have moral character, abstract ideas don’t. Religions can’t be good, evil, or anything in between. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/3 "2015-05-29T19:54:03Z")
1 and 4 make it impossible for me to join this religion. Based on that I will judge the true character of this religion by typing words up until I reach some random point in the se ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/4 "2015-05-29T20:08:56Z")
> [@JVDaly](#): > > The parallels with modern religions are, I hope, obvious. Christianity, for example, contains moral and immoral ideas. On the one hand Jesus said “Judge not lest ye be judged” and “Let he who is without sin etc…”. On the other hand, God clearly does (forgive my bluntness) actually “hate fags”. He really does. God has a beef with gay people and there’s no two ways about it. Leviticus 18:22, Deuteronomy 23:17, Kings 14:24, Romans 1:26-28, and Timothy 1:10 _to name but a few_. all condemn homosexuality. It can therefore be fairly argued that Jesus didn’t have gay people in mind when he was going about preaching love and forgiveness and QED, a “true” Christian ought to be homophobic. This is really a GD in its own right. Especially when Romans 1:30 throws in such crimes as “they disobey their parents” and Romans 2:1 concludes the issue with “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things” (I guess the Duggar family in particular missed out on Romans 2:1.) Anyway, I honestly don’t think you can characterize an entire religion any more than you can characterize an entire country, culture, business, etc. You can use statistics to say “75% of Dalyers in Chicago are violent, left-handed killing machines” and that’s about the best you can do. ---
**Author:** ![JVDaly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@JVDaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JVDaly)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/5 "2015-05-29T20:09:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You can’t; religions don’t have moral character. Only humans have moral character, abstract ideas don’t. Religions can’t be good, evil, or anything in between. But religions are moral guides. How can a moral guide not have a moral character? Take Jainism, for instance. The founding moral principle of Jainism is complete and utter non-violence toward all living things. Really observant Jains go through life with their eyes glued to the floor lest they step on an ant. They filter all the water they drink through a piece of cloth to make sure they don’t accidentally swallow a fly. To say that Jainism doesn’t have a moral character, to say that a good Jain could commit cold-blooded murder, for instance, would be to ignore everything in Jain scripture. As such, how can you say that Jainism doesn’t have a moral character? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/6 "2015-05-29T20:26:07Z")
If it means anything at all then all religions would consider themselves to have good moral character. You might as well ask which religion is the true and proper one. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/7 "2015-05-29T20:27:07Z")
As an individual, I can judge it based on my own moral values. As a society, we can judge it based on our collective societal values. Most of us would see dogma #3 as poisonously immoral, and judge Dalyism harshly because of it. That the dogma is ignored, or excused away by many, helps some. I’d far rather there were reformed Dalyists in the world than strict orthodox Dalyists. I’d still recommend additional reforms, but so long as they aren’t actually practicing dogma #3, they’re acceptable to our civilization. I’d rather there were more moderate Catholics, moderate Jews, moderate Muslims, moderate Marxists, and, yeah, moderate atheists than their extremist counterparts. Moderation is highly correlated with healthy morality. That’s my moral view and value. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/8 "2015-05-29T20:30:43Z")
> [@JVDaly](#): > > But religions are moral guides. How can a moral guide not have a moral character? As I said, because only humans have moral character. Inanimate objects, abstract concepts, natural phenomenon, and so forth do not and cannot, because they aren’t moral agents. > [@JVDaly](#): > > Take Jainism, for instance. The founding moral principle of Jainism is complete and utter non-violence toward all living things. Really observant Jains go through life with their eyes glued to the floor lest they step on an ant. They filter all the water they drink through a piece of cloth to make sure they don’t accidentally swallow a fly. To say that Jainism doesn’t have a moral character, to say that a good Jain could commit cold-blooded murder, for instance, would be to ignore everything in Jain scripture. As such, how can you say that Jainism doesn’t have a moral character? Perhaps we’re talking about different things. To clarify: one could speak to the moral implications of a person acting in accordance with this or that religion or ethical framework, certainly. But the religion or ethical code _itself_ can’t be “bad” or immoral, only human actions can be. I have other objections to your criteria for evaluating a religion (for example, “hav[ing] the capacity to motivate people to cause harm” describes essentially _everything_), but this is the primary one. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/9 "2015-05-29T20:32:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d rather there were more moderate Catholics, moderate Jews, moderate Muslims, moderate Marxists, and, yeah, moderate atheists than their extremist counterparts. Moderation is highly correlated with healthy morality. :dubious: What beliefs distinguish moderate and extremist atheism? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/10 "2015-05-29T20:44:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > :dubious: What beliefs distinguish moderate and extremist atheism? Extreme atheists form hunting parties to seek out and kill gods. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/11 "2015-05-29T21:17:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > :dubious: What beliefs distinguish moderate and extremist atheism? To me (I’m quite certain there are innumerable other definitions), moderate atheism doesn’t give a sh-t about what other people believe and doesn’t attempt to challenge other’s beliefs. “I don’t believe in God. You do? That’s nice. Don’t bother trying to convert me because I’ll just ignore you”. Extremist atheism is more belligerent about it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/12 "2015-05-29T21:19:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Extreme atheists form hunting parties to seek out and kill gods. So kind of like a snipe hunt? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/13 "2015-05-29T21:21:09Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > To me (I’m quite certain there are innumerable other definitions), moderate atheism doesn’t give a sh-t about what other people believe and doesn’t attempt to challenge other’s beliefs. “I don’t believe in God. You do? That’s nice. Don’t bother trying to convert me because I’ll just ignore you”. Extremist atheism is more belligerent about it. Is that how you define moderate religiousism? Those that are religious, but don’t give a shit about what others believe and don’t attempt to convert others? Are religious people that care about what other people believe and try to convert them “extremists”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/14 "2015-05-29T21:23:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So kind of like a snipe hunt? Oh, Ye of little faith! I remember the year we bagged us a Loki-had it stuffed and mounted, sitting above the fireplace next to the jackaloupe. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/15 "2015-05-29T21:44:20Z")
> [@JVDaly](#): > > If a religion contains bad ideas (like rule 3), and it can be reasonably argued that God wants its follows to adhere to these bad ideas, then the religion is, to the extent that these bad ideas have the capacity to cause harm, a bad religion. The actions of the majority don’t matter if the actions of the minority can be reasonably justified using scripture. Who are you to judge bad ideas? This is God Almighty we’re talking about. You sound like a left handed woman to me, or an apologist for one. I’d say actions speaker louder than words. But I have to seriously question why anyone would follow a religious book full of ideas they ignore. Why not rewrite the book so you agree with it? Just do it like the old ways and have someone go into a cave and fast for 60 days and claim divine inspiration. Or drop some acid, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/16 "2015-05-29T21:59:32Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > To me (I’m quite certain there are innumerable other definitions), moderate atheism doesn’t give a sh-t about what other people believe and doesn’t attempt to challenge other’s beliefs. “I don’t believe in God. You do? That’s nice. Don’t bother trying to convert me because I’ll just ignore you”. Extremist atheism is more belligerent about it. That’s not a belief, though, more like a personality trait. Atheism consists of one thing and one thing only: lack of belief in gods. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/17 "2015-05-29T22:05:34Z")
To me religion is rules and we are not meant to live by rules. If there is a hard and fast commandment it is a religion and thus can not be of God. If there is Love then that is God. Now God may exist within a religious structure, but God is never a part of that structure, but there in spite of it. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/18 "2015-05-29T22:10:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is that how you define moderate religiousism? Those that are religious, but don’t give a shit about what others believe and don’t attempt to convert others? Are religious people that care about what other people believe and try to convert them “extremists”? Close, but not quite. Atheism is an absolute (moderate vs extremist is more how you deal with your atheism); so you either are atheist or you are not atheist. You can be many different variations on religious, so it is harder to define moderate vs extremist; an Anglican may have less concern about converting a Catholic than converting a Buddhist. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/19 "2015-05-29T22:37:12Z")
> [@JVDaly](#): > > **The Commandments of Dalyism** > > 1. Don’t eat trans-fats. > 2. Don’t give away any spoilers for Game of Thrones. > 3. Kill a left-handed woman every second Thursday of the month. > 4. Don’t put squirrels down your pants for the purposes of gambling. > 5. Don’t kill anybody. > > Now, you might notice that there’s a slight contradiction between commandments 3 and 5. Well, also that in the upcoming _Winds of Winter_, George RR Martin kills off Ramsay Bolton in freak trouser-squirreling accident. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/20 "2015-05-29T22:47:13Z")
> [@JVDaly](#): > > To say that Jainism doesn’t have a moral character, to say that a good Jain could commit cold-blooded murder, for instance, would be to ignore everything in Jain scripture. Don’t forget that the sole primacy of “scripture” is a belief unique to conservative Protestant Christianity and not shared by anyone else. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136.md?page=2)