# How Do We Determine the True Character of a Religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136 "2015-05-29T18:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/61 "2015-06-05T18:42:08Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > God does not hate homosexuals. God hates the practice of homosexuality. Big difference. Good luck convincing any actually gay people of that “big difference.” > [@](#): > > I hate thievery, but if my son stole something I would hate that he did it but I wouldn’t hate him. “Gay people are like thieves.” I can see you’re already off to a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/62 "2015-06-05T18:46:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Good luck convincing any actually gay people of that “big difference.” > > “Gay people are like thieves.” I can see you’re already off to a good start. I never said gay people are like thieves. The point I was trying to make is that adultery is a sin and so is stealing. If you are going to quote me, at least have the decency to do it in the correct context. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/63 "2015-06-05T18:47:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So tell us…have you stoned anyone interesting lately? No, I haven’t. Not my job. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/64 "2015-06-05T18:57:07Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > No, I haven’t. Not my job. Ahhh…so the rules _have_ changed slightly. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/65 "2015-06-05T19:04:47Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > God does not hate homosexuals. God hates the practice of homosexuality. Big difference. I hate thievery, but if my son stole something I would hate that he did it but I wouldn’t hate him. Could you cite up some verses on God’s hatred for the practice of homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/66 "2015-06-05T19:47:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Gay people are like thieves.” I can see you’re already off to a good start. Strictly speaking, an accurate rendering would be “gay sex is like theft”, since Oddball is claiming a distinction between gay sex and gay people. It’s a specious distinction to me, snd I described earlier that I’d judge a religion by the level of irrationality it demands of its followers. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/67 "2015-06-05T20:00:26Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > I never said gay people are like thieves. Bullshit. > [@](#): > > The point I was trying to make is that adultery is a sin and so is stealing. Right. Gay sex = adultery = stealing. Therefore, gay person = adulterer = thief. You are welcome to attempt whatever contortions you think will allow you to state that belief in a way that is not fundamentally insulting to gay people. You will not be successful. > [@](#): > > If you are going to quote me, at least have the decency to do it in the correct context. I’m not interested in being lectured about “decency” by a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/68 "2015-06-05T20:43:33Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > I do not support the practice of shunning gays at all. I would rather try to convince them that homosexuality, as a practice, is adultry and therefore wrong. This is not to say that a homosexual person cannot be saved. I believe they can, but only if they confess their sins (to God, not to me) and then repent of those sins. And you are better than most of the right wing evangelicals of these days. > [@Oddball\_92](#): > > So do you expect God’s word and God’s law to change to accommodate an “evolving society”? What God has established as right and wrong for us has never changed. Piffle, like if there are no prohibitions against mixed fabrics, ripped-knees jeans, to round the hair corners of your heads, to eat shellfish, get a tattoo, to plant a garden with different seeds, etc. (We are all damned already it seems. 😉 ) The reality is that things change, even religious rules. (And in the new testament a justification was found to eat pig and for guys to have no need to be circumcised) In modern times even mainstream religion found ways to ignore rules about slavery, and a few are doing the same about the rules against gays. Now go, be an agent of change, and do not eat Beef Stroganoff. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/69 "2015-06-05T20:52:04Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Could you cite up some verses on God’s hatred for the practice of homosexuality? Genesis 19:1-11 Leviticus 18:22 Leviticus 20:13 Judges 19:16-24 1 Kings 14:24 1 Kings 15:12 2 Kings 23:7 Romans 1:18-32 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 1 Timothy 1:8-10 Jude 7 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/70 "2015-06-05T21:03:02Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Genesis 19:1-11 Leviticus 18:22 Leviticus 20:13 Judges 19:16-24 1 Kings 14:24 1 Kings 15:12 2 Kings 23:7 Romans 1:18-32 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 1 Timothy 1:8-10 Jude 7 Dibs on the first one! So blindness for the men, but the guy who tries to prostitute his virgin daughters is o.k. by God? Edited to add: And it was only temporary blindness so that they could not find the house, at that. Their sin was more sexual assault, not homosexuality. Do you know the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/71 "2015-06-05T21:04:07Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Genesis 19:1-11 Leviticus 18:22 Leviticus 20:13 Judges 19:16-24 1 Kings 14:24 1 Kings 15:12 2 Kings 23:7 Romans 1:18-32 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 1 Timothy 1:8-10 Jude 7 How many of those specifically condemn homosexual acts, as opposed to homosexuals? At a quick glance, I see Lev 18:22 (NIV) says: > [@](#): > > Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Arguably specific to the action rather than the person, but Lev 20:13 (NIV) says: > [@](#): > > If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Which seems pretty clearly not a “love the sinner, hate the sin” stance, but a “hate the sin, kill the sinner” one. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/72 "2015-06-05T21:04:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not interested in being lectured about “decency” by a bigot. You forgot “hater”, that usually comes right after bigot. You don’t seem as though you would want to hear anything about decency from anyone. How professional from a “moderator” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/73 "2015-06-05T21:07:03Z")
I don’t know if you are a hater, but do you love bacon? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/74 "2015-06-05T21:11:23Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > You forgot “hater”, that usually comes right after bigot. You don’t seem as though you would want to hear anything about decency from anyone. How professional from a “moderator” It’s not clear that the position you claim is one of decency, merely adherence to an arbitrary rule. A few generations ago in the West (and probably still in some places), it was probably considered “decent” to use punishment to discourage left-handedness. Why? Arbitrary rule. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/75 "2015-06-05T21:11:33Z")
[quote=“Bryan\_Ekers, post:71, topic:721136”] How many of those specifically condemn homosexual acts, as opposed to homosexuals? At a quick glance, I see Lev 18:22 (NIV) says: Arguably specific to the action rather than the person, but Lev 20:13 (NIV) says: Which seems pretty clearly not a “love the sinner, hate the sin” stance, but a “hate the sin, kill the sinner” one.[/QUOTE The “kill the sinner” part (as you put it) was Old Testament…Before the birth of Jesus. The “hate the sin” part still applies…as I said earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/76 "2015-06-05T21:15:10Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > The “kill the sinner” part (as you put it) was Old Testament…Before the birth of Jesus. The “hate the sin” part still applies…as I said earlier. So nothing has changed…except for the parts that have. All the rules are the same, but the punishment is different now? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/77 "2015-06-05T21:15:48Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > You forgot “hater”, that usually comes right after bigot. You don’t seem as though you would want to hear anything about decency from anyone. How professional from a “moderator” Typically of your kind: you can dish it out, but you can’t take it. Oh, hey, more rock solid consistency from you: > [@](#): > > What God has established as right and wrong for us has never changed. Versus: > [@](#): > > The “kill the sinner” part (as you put it) was Old Testament…Before the birth of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/78 "2015-06-05T21:17:20Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > The “kill the sinner” part (as you put it) was Old Testament…Before the birth of Jesus. The “hate the sin” part still applies…as I said earlier. What you also said earlier was: > [@you](#): > > So do you expect God’s word and God’s law to change to accommodate an “evolving society”? What God has established as right and wrong for us has never changed. It’s okay if you want to have it both ways, but why should we take you seriously if you try? ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/79 "2015-06-05T21:17:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t know if you are a hater, but do you love bacon? > > 🙂 Yep…sure do. And before you try to bait me, here is a pretty good article on the subject. [Is it okay for Christians to eat pork and shellfish? – Bible Q](http://bibleq.net/answer/2267/) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136/80 "2015-06-05T21:19:39Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Yep…sure do. And before you try to bait me, here is a pretty good article on the subject. [Is it okay for Christians to eat pork and shellfish? – Bible Q](http://bibleq.net/answer/2267/) Missing the point spectacularly, the point was that indeed Religion can change. There is no reason why we should assume that what was written will remain a rule forever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-determine-the-true-character-of-a-religion/721136.md?page=5)