# How do we end American Imperialism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286 "2016-08-28T15:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/241 "2016-09-09T19:42:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Franco was not a fascist. Oh, that explains it. Thanks for elaborating. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/242 "2016-09-10T05:29:08Z")
Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that the US came late in the struggle against communism? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/243 "2016-09-10T06:08:17Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that the US came late in the struggle against communism? No, we got in on that right at the beginning. Wilson sent troops into Russia in the summer of 1918. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/244 "2016-09-10T06:19:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Disagree; it may have been ultimately unsuccessful, but it wasn’t minimal. For example, the [RFB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roter_Frontk%C3%A4mpferbund) was literally fighting it out in the streets with the SA, [Arditi de Popolo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arditi_del_Popolo) was fighting the Blackshirts…these people fought, died, and went to prisons and camps to oppose fascism. It’s a disgrace to dismiss them as “minimal opposition”. > > Already disputed: the Spanish Civil War alone proves otherwise. No, the stuff you’re describing was minimal and ineffective. A lot of it was just intended to be symbolic. (And the Arditi del Popolo weren’t even communists.) If this had been the extent of opposition to fascism then the Nazis would still be in power. The Nazis didn’t face any meaningful opposition until 1939. As for Spain, a few hundred Soviets showed up, fired a few shots, took all of Spain’s gold, and went back to the Soviet Union. They did nothing to prevent Franco from seizing power. So I’d describe that as minimal opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/245 "2016-09-10T11:17:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Franco was not a fascist. [In Spain and abroad, the legacy of Franco remains controversial. The Oxford Dictionary uses Franco’s regime as an example of fascism.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco#Legacy) [From 1937 to 1948 the Franco regime was doctrinally at least a semi-fascist state, the categorical fascism of the FET (Falange Española Tradicionalista) as state party being mitigated above all by the confessional nature of the regime—creating the strange hybrid known to some as clerical fascism and to Amando de Miguel as “fascismo frailuno” (friar fascism).[46] On April 19, 1937, Franco managed to fuse the ideologically incompatible national-syndicalist Falange (“Phalanx”, a fascist Spanish political party founded by José Antonio Primo de Rivera) and the Carlist monarchist parties into one party under his rule, dubbed Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional-Sindicalista (FET y de las JONS), which became the only legal party in 1939. Unlike some other fascist movements, the Falangists did develop an official program, the Twenty-Seven Points. These exhibited all the main points of fascistic doctrine.[47] Franco made himself jefe nacional (National Chief) of the new FET (Falange Española Tradicionalista; Traditionalist Spanish Phalanx) with a secretary, Junta Political and National Council to be named subsequently by himself. Five days later (April 24) the raised-arm Fascist salute of the Falange was made the official salute of the Nationalist regime.[48] In 1939 the fascist style heavily predominated, with ritualistic invocations of “Franco, Franco, Franco.”[49] The Falangists’ hymn, Cara al Sol, became the semi-national anthem of Franco’s not-yet-established regime.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco#Political_command) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/246 "2016-09-10T11:43:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, we got in on that right at the beginning. Wilson sent troops into Russia in the summer of 1918. You’re talking about something meaningful, right - presumably not this debacle: > [@](#): > > The American Expeditionary Force Siberia (AEF Siberia) was a United States Army force that was “involved” in the Russian Civil War in Vladivostok, Russian Empire, during the end of World War I after the October Revolution, from 1918 to 1920. However, the AEF Siberia were devastated by the Siberian weather and did not fight in any battle before returning. > **[American Expeditionary Force, Siberia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Expeditionary_Force_Siberia)** > > The American Expeditionary Force, Siberia (AEF in Siberia) was a formation of the United States Army involved in the Russian Civil War in Vladivostok, Russia, after the October Revolution, from 1918 to 1920. The force was part of the larger Allied North Russia intervention. As a result of this expedition, early relations between the United States and the Soviet Union were poor. > U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's claimed objectives for sending troops to Siberia were as much diplomatic as they wer... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/247 "2016-09-10T16:25:14Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > You’re talking about something meaningful, right - presumably not this debacle: > > [American Expeditionary Force, Siberia - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Expeditionary_Force_Siberia) Well, there was this: > **[American Expeditionary Force, North Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Expedition)** > > The American Expeditionary Force, North Russia (AEF in North Russia) (also known as the Polar Bear Expedition) was a contingent of about 5,000 United States Army troops that landed in Arkhangelsk, Russia as part of the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War. It fought the Red Army in the surrounding region during the period of September 1918 through to July 1919. > U.S. President Woodrow Wilson sent the Polar Bear Expedition to Russia in response to requests from the governments of Great ... as part of the primarily Anglo-French Northern Russia Campaign. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/248 "2016-09-10T17:32:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, there was this: > > [American Expeditionary Force, North Russia - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Expedition) > > as part of the primarily Anglo-French Northern Russia Campaign. Jesus wept, an even greater debacle - writing a petition so they could leave? What a disastrous deployment of US army units that describes. So what is\*\* Little Nemo\*\* so keen to tell us about? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/249 "2016-09-11T11:47:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, the stuff you’re describing was minimal and ineffective. A lot of it was just intended to be symbolic. (And the Arditi del Popolo weren’t even communists.) > > If this had been the extent of opposition to fascism then the Nazis would still be in power. The Nazis didn’t face any meaningful opposition until 1939. > > As for Spain, a few hundred Soviets showed up, fired a few shots, took all of Spain’s gold, and went back to the Soviet Union. They did nothing to prevent Franco from seizing power. So I’d describe that as minimal opposition. [Arditi de Popolo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arditi_del_Popolo) It grouped revolutionary trade-unionists, socialists, communists, anarchists, republicans, etc., as well as some former military officers, and was co-founded by Mingrino, Argo Secondari, Gino Lucetti – who tried to assassinate Mussolini on 11 September 1926 – the deputy Guido Picelli and others. Composed of socialists, anarchists and communists, the Arditi del Popolo was not supported by the socialist parties (neither by the Italian Socialist Party, PSI, nor by the Communist Party of Italy, PCI). The Bordigan tendency was opposed by the Marxist philosopher Antonio Gramsci, and many communist activists, who supported the Arditi. In October 1921, the Comintern criticized the “sectarian policy” of the PCI, who threatened those of its members who supported the Arditi with disciplinary measures. There were communists in the Arditi del Popolo. It appears that you’re conceding that the events I mentioned all took place, and are trying to dismiss them using your own value judgments. I’ll leave it to the reader to decide if the communist fight against fascism was “minimal” or not, as it’s been established that the fight did occur. As I can’t argue against your subjective value judgments, I consider the matter closed. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/250 "2016-09-15T05:02:27Z")
I don’t think there’s anything meaningful that normal people can do. We’re talking huge systems of power and control extending across continents. The American empire will expand to its furthest reach and then decline and collapse like all great nations before it, from the Soviets to the Romans. I think the best case scenario is that leaders will steer for a soft landing or decoupling from the grand design, instead of stubbornly hurtling into a brick wall. This is anathema in current mainstream discourse, but if things get bad enough opinions may change. More optimistically, we know the society can be civilized given the right movements. You can see the effects of this over the last fifty years or so. Many people understand the situation and don’t like it, whereas in the past it was just accepted. People protest wars before they even happen. You see all sorts of subversive messages about terrorism, militarism, and corporate control in mainstream entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/251 "2016-09-15T05:46:18Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It appears that you’re conceding that the events I mentioned all took place Stop doing that. Don’t claim I’m agreeing with you or conceding you are correct when I am not saying anything remotely like that. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/252 "2016-09-15T05:58:24Z")
More pessimistically those movements from the seventies died a slow death. Anti imperialism did have its effect on society but the establishment fought back. The state now has ful control of the main news outlets. Not only of its own country, I might add. We in Europe get most of the same propaganda during our news broadcasts. They tested the waters with Grenada and saw that they could rile up the nationalism pretty easily. Gulf war I was the next step up and now we are back to full fledged meddling in and destroying sovereign states. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/253 "2016-09-15T06:14:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > . . . The American empire will expand to its furthest reach and then decline and collapse like all great nations before it, from the Soviets to the Romans. I think the best case scenario is that leaders will steer for a soft landing . . . I would say this has already happened. We withdrew from the Philippines, and our determination to oppose Russian expansion is weaker than it was during the Cold War. Donald Trump can openly discuss failing to live up to our NATO obligations, and hearts in Lithuania tremble. I think we can maintain our interests world-wide, just as Great Britain does, relying more and more on diplomacy and trade, and less and less on the “big stick.” The nuclear stand-off will last another half-century (at least) but we will see fewer and fewer air-strikes from aircraft carriers in forward positions. (When was the last carrier-strike launched? Are carriers much-used in the war against ISIS?) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/254 "2016-09-15T08:40:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Stop doing that. Don’t claim I’m agreeing with you or conceding you are correct when I am not saying anything remotely like that. Well you’re not exactly covering yourself in glory with your claims of “we got in their right at the start”. The USA did nothing meaningful to oppose communism until post WW2 - you still opposing this? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/255 "2016-09-15T12:23:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Stop doing that. Don’t claim I’m agreeing with you or conceding you are correct when I am not saying anything remotely like that. You misunderstand me. You’re saying that the events I have listed were “minimal and ineffective”, and/or “symbolic”. I mean, look at post #236: it’s just a dispute over what’s “minimal” and what’s “substantial”. That’s quite different from disputing that they occurred. If you say they didn’t occur, I can provide citations that they did (eg, that there were communists in the Arditi de Popolo, a simple matter of the historical record). If you say they didn’t _matter_, there’s not much I can do, is there? That’s just a value judgment, and inherently subjective. It’s like debating whether _Star Wars_ is an “important” film, or whether Truman was a “great” president - subjective interpretations based on objective elements. In short: I’m not claiming you agree with me, I’m claiming that we’ve left the realm of the objective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286.md?page=12)