# How do we end American Imperialism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286 "2016-08-28T15:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/121 "2016-09-02T16:16:22Z")
Since the US became the most dominate country (~1945) the world has never had a more peaceful, prosperous span of 60 years. That can’t be entirely (or even mostly) credited to the US but they are linked. [Pax Americana.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Americana) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/122 "2016-09-03T11:49:36Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Since the US became the most dominate country (~1945) the world has never had a more peaceful, prosperous span of 60 years. That can’t be entirely (or even mostly) credited to the US but they are linked. [Pax Americana.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Americana) Sure, but how’s that an argument [against](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana) [imperialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Britannica)? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/123 "2016-09-03T11:55:22Z")
I would posit that our military adventurism has probably already reached its climax and that our geopolitical power is waning. We haven’t quite reached the gibbous phase, but we’ll get there eventually. We will eventually – maybe sometime in the next 10-30 years – return to a multi-polar political world in which we have regional powers. History suggests that’s not necessarily a good thing, either. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/124 "2016-09-03T12:07:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But your hardon that this is the same country as is was fifty or a hundred years ago speaks more to your bias than any reasonable way to judge a country’s place in the world. Shall we judge your country on the basis of its policies several generations ago, to the exclusion of what is actually happening today? It’s not fair to judge a country based on what it did 50 or 100 years ago, but when we said country conducts an illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq on one hand and declares economic warfare on countries like Iran, merely because they refused to bow to American interests, then we haven’t really moved on, have we? And that’s saying nothing of American interventions in Latin America, where we continue to meddle behind the scenes to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/125 "2016-09-03T21:23:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nonsense. The USA _liberated_ Puerto Rico from a true Imperialistic power- Spain. Seriously? Yeah, Puerto Rico was a colony of Imperial Spain. But we didn’t liberate it, we made it our own colony. Calling that “liberation” is delusional. The fact that their current status isn’t that of a conquered colony is irrelevant to the fact that they weren’t liberated when we conquered them. The Philippines is an exactly similar case. We didn’t liberate them from Spain, we conquered them and made them an American colony, and fought a bloody and nasty war to keep them. Japan didn’t liberate the Philippines in 1942 either. Again, the current status of the Philippines as a fully independent country doesn’t change the fact that we didn’t liberate them from Spanish rule in 1898. We liberated them in 1946, from American rule. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/126 "2016-09-04T22:07:10Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Seriously? Yeah, Puerto Rico was a colony of Imperial Spain. But we didn’t liberate it, we made it our own colony. Calling that “liberation” is delusional. > > The fact that their current status isn’t that of a conquered colony is irrelevant to the fact that they weren’t liberated when we conquered them. What were going to do with them, then? We made them into a territory so we could protect them from further European Imperialism. Kicking the Spanish out then saying “BYE!” just invite another nation in. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/127 "2016-09-04T22:40:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What were going to do with them, then? We made them into a territory so we could protect them from further European Imperialism. Kicking the Spanish out then saying “BYE!” just invite another nation in. Wait, your argument is that we took them over, which is good, because if we didn’t, another country would have taken them over, and that would have been bad? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/128 "2016-09-04T22:48:13Z")
At the time that Puerto Rico was invaded by the US (it wasn’t in its shores that the USS Maine exploded, among other things), the political situation with Spain was actually advanced to the point that they were moving towards more autonomy (in terms of trade and economics, for example). In the immediate aftermath, the US regressed that. For some years Puerto Rico was not under civilian rule. Even then, all the major local rulers were appointed by the US congress. It wasn’t until almost 50 years later than Puerto Ricans could start electing their own officials (when they had appointed their own representative to the Spanish court centuries before). Calling it a liberation is… false. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/129 "2016-09-05T00:24:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Wait, your argument is that we took them over, which is good, because if we didn’t, another country would have taken them over, and that would have been bad? No, we freed them from Spain, which was Good. They were being brutalized by a corrupt Imperial power. Then what do we do? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/130 "2016-09-05T00:37:33Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > At the time that Puerto Rico was invaded by the US (it wasn’t in its shores that the USS Maine exploded, among other things), the political situation with Spain was actually advanced to the point that they were moving towards more autonomy (in terms of trade and economics, for example). There were some tentative steps by one minister, eight days before PR was liberated. Spain did not voluntarily give up the last of it’s Empire until 1975. Until then Spain had not willingly given up any significant portions of it’s Empire. To think they would have done so in **1898** is laughable. Some residents want to be a State, other want to continue the status qou, almost none want to be independent. “The only registered pro-independence party, the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), usually receives 3–5% of the electoral votes.” ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/131 "2016-09-05T01:26:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, we freed them from Spain, which was Good. They were being brutalized by a corrupt Imperial power. > > Then what do we do? Well, we brutalized them in a war when they tried to declare independence. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/132 "2016-09-05T04:46:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, we freed them from Spain, which was Good. They were being brutalized by a corrupt Imperial power. > > Then what do we do? Let them be independent? I mean, Cuba got their independence after the Spanish American War, and no foreign power (except for us in 1906) took them over. I mean, it was kind of a crappy sort of independence, where we made them give us a naval base and told them we could control their spending and intervene in their affairs, but it was sort of independence. And I don’t even think Puerto Rico should be independent now…the people, as a whole, don’t want it. But it seems kind of off to say that colonialism is bad except when we do it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/133 "2016-09-05T07:34:45Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Well, we brutalized them in a war when they tried to declare independence. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/134 "2016-09-05T09:24:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite? I think Rand is talking about the Philippines, not PR. I was confused too. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/135 "2016-09-05T09:25:59Z")
The Ponce Massacre might be a starting point. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/136 "2016-09-05T10:19:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There were some tentative steps by one minister, eight days before PR was liberated. Spain did not voluntarily give up the last of it’s Empire until 1975. Until then Spain had not willingly given up any significant portions of it’s Empire. To think they would have done so in **1898** is laughable. > > Some residents want to be a State, other want to continue the status qou, almost none want to be independent. > > “The only registered pro-independence party, the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), usually receives 3–5% of the electoral votes.” I’m referring to the [Carta Autonómica](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carta_Auton%C3%B3mica_de_Puerto_Rico_(1897)), which was approved _before_ the sinking of the USS Maine (the event that precipitated the war of 1898). Here is a reference in **[English](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Puerto_Rico)**, under “Charter of Autonomy”. Sadly, slowness in transport and communication and bureocracy being what it was, it was not fully implemented until shortly before the invasion, but this whole concept of granting the islands more autonomy and freedom had been happening before the war. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/137 "2016-09-05T10:39:33Z")
As to what **up\_the\_junction** mentioned, the local government imposed by the US and the one elected afterwards did kill, discriminate, and persecute pro-independence promoters. [Rio Piedras massacre in 1935](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_Piedras_massacre) [Ponce massacre in 1937](http://www.enciclopediapr.org/ing/article.cfm?ref=06102005&highlight=%2Bmassacre%20%2Bponce) [Ley de la mordaza in 1948](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_Law_(Puerto_Rico)). It was repealed in 1957. FBI and local police profiled and investigated those suspected to be pro-independence. [FBI reference.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO) A couple of Spanish links for the local involvement: 1. These files were made public in the 1980s, and some people got their files already. Some didn’t want or care for them. Those files were made public last year. [They are now part of the Archivo General de Puerto Rico (Puerto Rico General Archive).](http://www.icp.gobierno.pr/comunicados/682-carpetas-no-solicitadas) 2. Although they started with those files that had been left abandoned, the office opened the call up for others to give their files back to the Archive. [Here is a call for it.](http://dialogoupr.com/hacen-publico-el-carpeteo-a-los-independentistas/) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/138 "2016-09-05T11:59:41Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > The Ponce Massacre might be a starting point. Terrible as that was, it was neither a war nor a response to a declaration of independence, though. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/139 "2016-09-05T12:16:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think Rand is talking about the Philippines, not PR. I was confused too. Yes, Philippines. Sorry I wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286/140 "2016-09-05T20:29:07Z")
Back to the OP. Thing is if the US wasnt imperialistic, other countries would be. China is now doing this. Japan was doing this back in the 80’s. Russia is doing this. Just because England, France, and Spain have quit doing this doesnt mean new players wont come into the game. Now if the OP thinks there will come a day when countries will not seek to expand their influence, flex their military, or desire more territory - well good luck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-end-american-imperialism/764286.md?page=8)