# How do we fix this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594 "2019-10-28T14:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/21 "2019-10-28T17:39:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There is no fixing it. Instead of worshiping a golden calf, the cult worships an orange jackass. This cult of personality is every bit as extreme as the cult of Kim in North Korea. Actually, it’s worse because North Koreans have no resources for objective truth, the MAGAbots have the resources but refuse to use them. I’m afraid that deprogramming the cult is nearly impossible, the only cure for most will be embalming fluid. There are systemic problems that go well beyond just Trump though. We’re a nation that believes way too much of the bullshit that we see on TV or whatever comes across our news feed. Most people in this society hate learning anything unless it’s “practical,” which seems innocuous on the surface, but is problematic in terms of understanding how this self-governance thing is supposed to work. I agree: I really don’t think we’re going to fix it this time. That doesn’t mean we won’t ever eventually fix it, and it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. But we are about to experience what a failed democracy looks like, and it’s not a pretty sight. If we think that norms have been violated now, well, wait. We’ve seen nothing. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/22 "2019-10-28T17:39:54Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something? 😕 He’s either a zombie from Los Angeles, or a particularly lazy such creature (or both). He’s also one of those trollish types who’s sole apparent interest in this board is facilitate insulting people he disagrees with politically. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/23 "2019-10-28T17:47:56Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something? 😕 To put a fine point on it, check out the OP, which has a direct quote from the poster in question. I mean, it’s not a terrible idea looking at the first post of a thread, especially one that hasn’t gone multi-page yet. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/24 "2019-10-28T17:47:57Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > And that mindset just boggles my mind. It’s as if almost everything I’ve believed my entire life is irrelevant. Honor, integrity, honesty…none of that shit matters anymore. The world has passed me by. I’m a dinosaur, and my killer asteroid is long overdue… Those are the values of fair play, of cooperation, of living beside one another with a certain degree of implicit equality. That’s not how Republicans of today think, which is not to say that there was some golden age when everything was harmonious. Generations will always struggle to find the right balance. But there were institutional checks and balances that existed to promote fair play and to curb abuses of power, and you could get at least some right wingers to understand the value of peace and tranquility, if nothing else. Now? Forget it. They don’t even seem to care about peace and tranquility, either, as evidenced by some of their references to “second civil wars” and other statements to that effect. But I don’t see this getting better, and I think ordinary people need to be thinking about what comes next. In what universe did any of us think that we’d live to see a time when Vladimir Putin would be briefed on a planned secret raid before the members of the House intel committee and the Speaker. That is a jaw-dropping story if true, and I don’t have reason to doubt that it is. It is the perfect example of how the executive branch is essentially saying that it intends to overpower the legislative, and if it can do that, particularly with the one mechanism of federal power that relies upon direct democratic influence, well then there you have it. American Democracy: 1776 - 2019. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/25 "2019-10-28T17:50:07Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There are systemic problems that go well beyond just Trump though. We’re a nation that believes way too much of the bullshit that we see on TV or whatever comes across our news feed. Most people in this society hate learning anything unless it’s “practical,” which seems innocuous on the surface, but is problematic in terms of understanding how this self-governance thing is supposed to work. > > I agree: I really don’t think we’re going to fix it this time. That doesn’t mean we won’t ever eventually fix it, and it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. But we are about to experience what a failed democracy looks like, and it’s not a pretty sight. If we think that norms have been violated now, well, wait. We’ve seen nothing. I think a lot of the problem now is that there are now too many sources of news and many of those sources do not follow journalistic standards, have biases, or just plain lie. Joe Sixpack gets outraged when he reads Facebook memes about migrants getting $3854 per month from the government or Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US or kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance in school. None of these things are true, but that no longer matters. They vote based on how they feel even if these feelings have no basis in fact. How we get Americans to stop believing the constant stream of lies that parade in front of their eyeballs constantly is a challenge that perhaps cannot be met. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/26 "2019-10-28T18:00:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think a lot of the problem now is that there are now too many sources of news and many of those sources do not follow journalistic standards, have biases, or just plain lie. Joe Sixpack gets outraged when he reads Facebook memes about migrants getting $3854 per month from the government or Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US or kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance in school. None of these things are true, but that no longer matters. They vote based on how they feel even if these feelings have no basis in fact. How we get Americans to stop believing the constant stream of lies that parade in front of their eyeballs constantly is a challenge that perhaps cannot be met. We live in a world in which information is highly decentralized, which can be advantageous in some circumstances, but disadvantageous in others. One problem is that consensus can be harder to come by. I don’t mean that we should realistically aim to achieve political and cultural consensus on specific issues, but there ought to be a solid majority of people who trust in the process and trust that the other person isn’t out to undermine the process and institutions. We can see the strategy employed by our international adversaries: use misinformation to cast doubt on our processes and institutions. More ominously, they’re using misinformation as a way of getting Americans to question their own value system - questioning whether immigration, diversity, equality, and democratic civic participation are all values that we should embrace. I don’t think card carrying Republicans are the only ones who are susceptible to misinformation campaigns, and I’d submit that independents and hardcore progressive ideologues can be influenced by misinformation as well. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/27 "2019-10-29T09:52:33Z")
What makes the recent random anger from Trumpists especially bizarre is that _ **Trump’s raw criminality has come into full view.** _ Only the most obstinate or partisan can fail to acknowledge it now. Right-wingers, Trumpists and Republicans don’t try to defend Trump’s crimes, or even mention them. Instead they lash out randomly like frenzied imbeciles: “Fake fake. You too. Blah blah.” If they had the IQ of a cockroach they’d admit that their boy did wrong (and the rational thinkers here would applaud), but they lack the moral gumption, or intelligence, to even do that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/28 "2019-10-29T17:22:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What makes the recent random anger from Trumpists especially bizarre is that _ **Trump’s raw criminality has come into full view.** _ Only the most obstinate or partisan can fail to acknowledge it now. > > Right-wingers, Trumpists and Republicans don’t try to defend Trump’s crimes, or even mention them. Instead they lash out randomly like frenzied imbeciles: “Fake fake. You too. Blah blah.” If they had the IQ of a cockroach they’d admit that their boy did wrong (and the rational thinkers here would applaud), but they lack the moral gumption, or intelligence, to even do that. I think Trumpists have known all along that Trump is a criminal according to the letter of the law, and not just a “Oh I forgot to report this donation” or “I lied to an agent about getting my mistress pregnant” kinda criminal but a blatant thug – I think they’ve always known that. I think they purposely apply two standards because their worldview is premised on the notion of supremacy. In their minds, there’s a hierarchy, a food chain - and they’re on top. Anything and anyone that challenges the notion of supremacy is illegitimate, which in turn justifies behavior such as lying and criminality in pursuit of wealth and power. Don’t try to interpret their words and deeds based on facts; understand it in terms of the supremacy of their worldview, which holds that they are superior and that as superior beings, they have the right to disregard any of the conventions that would potentially be used to demonstrate that they are somehow short of supreme. There is no other way to explain how they can put yellow ribbon stickers on their SUVs along side the ones that say Trump 2020. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/29 "2019-10-29T17:45:37Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What makes the recent random anger from Trumpists especially bizarre is that _ **Trump’s raw criminality has come into full view.** _ They DON’T CARE. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/30 "2019-10-29T18:14:22Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > They DON’T CARE. It’s amazing how many people still don’t believe this. Are my taxes lower? Are there conservatives on the SC? My guns safe? Liberals crying? Good - I don’t care what the President does. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/31 "2019-10-29T18:21:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Start winning elections ? Well, let’s see: we handily won elections in 2008 and 2012 – well above the margin where an electoral fluke would put the loser into the Oval Office – and the willful dumbassery reached epic proportions. Got any other bright ideas, Professor? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/32 "2019-10-29T18:26:25Z")
The worst part is, **LAZombie** probably lives in like Redlands or some other dump which he passes off as being “LA.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/33 "2019-10-29T18:30:55Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something? 😕 [Twoofer.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21854929#post21854929) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/34 "2019-10-29T18:33:58Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Well, let’s see: we handily won elections in 2008 and 2012 – well above the margin where an electoral fluke would put the loser into the Oval Office – and the willful dumbassery reached epic proportions. > > Got any other bright ideas, Professor? :dubious: Sadly, no. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/35 "2019-10-29T18:41:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It’s amazing how many people still don’t believe this. > > Are my taxes lower? Are there conservatives on the SC? My guns safe? Liberals crying? Good - I don’t care what the President does. It’s actually worse than that - they _like_ that he’s a criminal, because they approve of him getting away with shit. They’d like to get away with shit, so they like seeing their heroes do it. And it pisses off the liberals when the republicans get away with murder, so they get to see liberal tears, too. And honestly, what’s the big deal if Trump uses his office for political gain and sells the country off to the highest bidding hostile foreign power? It’s what they’d do in his shoes. Now, not all conservatives will see things this way - but all Trumpers will. Simply by virtue of the fact that if they were bothered by any of this, they wouldn’t be pro-Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/36 "2019-10-29T18:50:28Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Twoofer.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21854929#post21854929) Thanks. I honestly didn’t recognize that name and thought maybe it was a blog or something from the intertubes. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/37 "2019-10-29T21:58:18Z")
Meanwhile, looks like we’re getting pretty perilously close to Charles Sumner and Preston Brooks time. [https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/politics/vindman-testimony-whistleblower-identity/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/politics/vindman-testimony-whistleblower-identity/index.html) > [@](#): > > Democrats and Republicans got into a shouting match behind closed doors on Tuesday while interviewing a witness in the impeachment investigation, with Democrats accusing Republicans of trying to out the anonymous whistleblower who sparked the impeachment inquiry, according to five sources from both parties. Won’t be long before reps start coming to blows. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/38 "2019-10-29T21:58:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Joe Sixpack gets outraged when he reads Facebook memes about migrants getting $3854 per month from the government or Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US or kids no longer saying the pledge of allegiance in school. None of these things are true, but that no longer matters. They vote based on how they feel even if these feelings have no basis in fact. How we get Americans to stop believing the constant stream of lies that parade in front of their eyeballs constantly is a challenge that perhaps cannot be met. Substitute America for Australia, and it’s identical to what is happening here downunder. Scomo (our PM, Scott Morrison) has borrowed the Trump and Repub play book, and using toxic politics to scare the population into a position of fear and loathing of anyone ‘different’. It’s scary and it’s nauseating, but I don’t see the opposition party getting a foothold in govt any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/39 "2019-10-29T22:21:46Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > LAZombie posts this hot nonsense: > > I mean, what the fuck? Really. What the fuck. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594/40 "2019-10-29T22:23:42Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Who, or what, is LAZombie? Is that a poster here, or something? 😕 Some kind of ass cancer? I dunno. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-fix-this/842594.md?page=3)