# How do we get Europe to like us? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2001, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717 "2001-06-13T20:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/21 "2001-06-14T14:12:29Z")
Europe is not a single, homogenous country. The US resembles the UK far more than it does, say, Italy. If you genuinely wanted to ask what the US could learn from European countries, maybe you should’ve asked. Your OP was patently unconcerned with any such reasonable questions, as posters and mods alike have already commented. Some rebuttals: > [@](#): > > …perhaps our government could issue a report accusing the police of institutional rascism… Yes, isn’t it terrible that the British government investigated allegations of racism? You must be so proud that US police forces aren’t currently facing any allegations of racism or corruption. > [@](#): > > …I did mean the NHS, but the HMS is funnier… Yes, illiteracy is hilarious. > [@](#): > > …America has the best medical care in the world… Cites? > [@](#): > > …but they don’t usually involve Asians… Now you’ve really lost me. Riots involving Asians are an indication of a failing state, but involving non-Asians aren’t? Please, expand upon this. > [@](#): > > …When Americans think of Britains, the first thing that comes to mind after bad food is poor teeth… That says more about your perceptions than it does about British dentistry. > [@](#): > > …when I hear about the food you were eating before it is no wonder you embraced the fast food… Ah, yes. I forgot that little known “insult trumps all” rule in debating. Again, you’re saying more about your own opinions than any verifiable facts. > [@](#): > > …I plan to visit the UK as soon as you get the crime rate under control and the food is safe to eat again, and the government stops burning carcasses that send foot and mouth viruses into the air… Again, you’ve not posted any cites or facts to support any of your opinions. Post some hard evidence that crime is out of control in the UK, that foot and mouth is being spread by the pyres (and so on) and maybe you can salvage a little respect out of this. Mods, is there any point in leaving this open (in GD, at least)? This isn’t going anywhere soon. Puddleglum’s displayed no interest in debating or learning, merely a desire for insults. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/22 "2001-06-14T14:17:06Z")
I think the whole crime rate thing is a misconception based on miscomparisons, I’d like to see an unbiased comparison of crime rates, one that uncludes murders. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/23 "2001-06-14T14:17:35Z")
I would like to second **Minty Green** ’s motion. This pile of bigoted, uninformed drivel (I’ll bet that \*\*Puddleglum \*\* has never even been to Europe) needs to be moved to the Pit to be properly answered. I will say that, looking at **Puddleglum** ’s track record, he is at least consistent in the tone and level of intellect displayed in his posts. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/24 "2001-06-14T14:38:14Z")
Hey **goboy** , remind me to tell you what Emerson said about consistency when this gets over to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/25 "2001-06-14T15:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > \*\*Yes I did mean the NHS, but the HMS is funnier. I find it refreshing that American pols are not the only ones adept at blaming the previous administration for their own failures. Yes, that America has the best medical care in the world using capitalism and that the UK’s system is crumbling because of a lack of financial incentives is just a coincidence. \*\* Except that your healthcare isn’t universally available. What do I have to do to prove that the Conservative government privatised the NHS? it’s a fact, not an opinion. What is an opinion, however (shared by the majority of patients and staff alike), is that the health service has declined steadily since it started being run as a capitalist enterprise. OK, capitalism seems to satisfy some people, great, just don’t expect the whole world to gawp in wonder at it. But to your second question; > [@](#): > > The question is should the US be more like Europe Why should it? why should anything try to be like anything else instead of following it’s own best judgment? it’s a fallacy to imagine that you can transplant the successes of one country or culture into another by mere slavish copying. Inspiration is what’s needed, not imitation. And like **Mattk** said WTH does it matter which particular race is instigating the riots, sure, our race riots involve Asians, yours don’t, what’s the significance (other than that it props up your crumblingly poor arguments)? Anyway, i think that’s all I’m going to contribute to this thread, I’ll admit that the UK has problems, some of them serious, **Puddleglum** you’re kidding yourself if you don’t do the same with regard to the US. [sub]brief note for ‘normal’ Americans: _please don’t think I’m anti-US or anything, it’s ignorance we’re fighting here, not each other_[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/26 "2001-06-14T16:00:23Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] I believe there could be a Great Debate on “how do we get Europe to like us?”, but this ain’t it. The OP is so lacking in rational argument and chock full o’ outrageous stereotypes (stereotypes that I don’t believe even the OP takes seriously) that I don’t think any debate will come of this; it reads simply as a rant about those stupid furriners. Off the the Pit. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/27 "2001-06-14T16:22:22Z")
nnnnggggggggggg _Fran tears her hair out_ I have no time right now, but I shall be back later to tell you exactly what i think of you and your OP you ignorant, bigoted fuck. Fran Gaudere - thanks for moving this. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/28 "2001-06-14T16:25:07Z")
In the US healthcare is universally available you just have to pay for it. If you can not pay for it you can be declared indigent the government will pay for it. The Conservatives have been out of power and Labor has had a huge majority for over 4 years now. The NHS didn’t work under the Tories and it doesn’t work under Labor, the problem is not who is admistering it it is a fundemntally flawed system. I agree that the US should not be more like Europe, but there are some here in the US who think that we could solve all our problems just by copying the Europeans. They have taken the opportunity of Bush’s trip to Europe to unfavorably contrast the US with the supposedly more enlightened Europeans. However they ignore the facts that Europe is faced with many of the same problems as the US and have been less succesfull than the US in solving those problems. In the US we have full employment, low taxes, and government surpluses. Our crime rates are falling, race relations are better than ever, new medicines are constantly being developed and our agriculture sector is the most efficient in the world. In Europe most countries have high unemployment, high taxes, and government deficits. Crime rates are soaring, racial violence is increasing, health care is rationed or of poor quality, and massive subsidies keep agriculture inefficient. Despite these facts there are those in America who think that we should change our ways to be more like them because some Europeans think that we are unsophisticated. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/29 "2001-06-14T16:37:22Z")
Ahem. **Puddleglum** , you are a freaking waste of oxygen. Your posts have always been redolent of the rancid odor of rotten arguments and curdled reasoning. Your WWII references are particularly vomitous. How dare you mock the suffering of people who had to survive Nazi tyranny as best they could? > [@](#): > > We start using doctors to kill the sick and old instead of treating them. Then we can start euthanizing handicapped babies. We can legalize drugs and prostitution and turn our biggest city into an internationally reknowned cesspool. You had better start apologizing to the Dutch posters PDQ, Chuckles. Comparing carefully monitored medical procedures to spare the suffering of terminal patients **with their own consent** to Nazi killing of the handicapped is horrible, particularly when addressed to people who lost family members in this way. How is Amsterdam a cesspool? I’ve been there and thought it was the second most beautiful city in Europe (Sorry, but Prague wins) Yes, the Netherlands is a lot more tolerant than the US, but I see that as a virtue. > [@](#): > > We could disband our military and teach our border guards such useful German phrases “We surrender”, “Please don’t hurt us” and “We never really liked Jews anyway” Holocaust jokes, reeeaaalll funny. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > We could start paying our directors to produce movies no one wants to see and our authors to write books no one wants to read. You are about as expert on the world of arts and letters as a mermaid is on rollerskating. They may be books **you** don’t want to read because they don’t have big pictures you can color. It’s obvious you’ve travelled little, or if you have, you were incapable of storing information in the vacuum inside your microcaphalic skull. In other words, shut up and stop embarrassing us Americans who have to suffer just from inhabiting the same continent with such a purulent pustule of filth as yourself! ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/30 "2001-06-14T17:06:43Z")
**puddles** sez > [@](#): > > In the US healthcare is universally available you just have to pay for it. If you can not pay for it you can be declared indigent the government will pay for it. wow, that, of course, will be news to the [AMA](http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/1751-4466.html) who call the number of uninsured Americans a “national health crisis”. But then, I’d expect nothing more of **puddleglum** who repeatedly offers up his half baked, skewed, illogical, uninformed opinions based on incorrect, incomplete or simply erroneous data, on a wide variety of topics. BUt, please, don’t change - I’d simply **hate** it if you started ‘debating’ the liberal side of things 😃 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/31 "2001-06-14T17:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > > America has the best medical care in the world\*\* Except for Japan, Australia, France, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Monaco, Andorra, San Marino, Canada, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Norway, Belgium, Austria, Luxembourg, Iceland, Finland, Malta, Germany, and Israel, all of whom have a higher [life expectancy](http://filestore.who.int/~who/whr/2000/en/pdf/AnnexTable05.pdf) than the US. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/32 "2001-06-14T17:31:44Z")
You GD folks are a trip. Why did this abortion of a thread get even one reply? That being said, > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*I went to America last year for GenCon. > > _snip_ > > Everyone I met was polite, helpful and interested in England\*. > There was no swearing, drunkenness or rudeness. > I had offers to keep in touch from people who shared my specific interests (chess, teaching D+D in Schools and 18xx railway games), and countless invitations to come back next year to meet people again. > > Just thought I’d mention that… > \*\* I’m sorry, glee. We’ll try to do better next time. And this thread wouldn’t be complete without the standard O’Rourke rant: I know what are really thinking, you bastard, go ahead, just say it. You feel that we Americans think life is a John Wayne movie – with good guys and bad guys, as simple as that. Well, you know something, Mr. Marx-Lovin’, Socialist-Saluting, Commie-Sympathizer? You’re right. And let me tell you who those bad guys are. They’re us. Americans. WE BE BAD. And you’re jealous. We’re the baddest-assed sons of bitches that ever jogged in Reeboks. We’re three-quarters grizzly bear and two-thirds car wreck and descended from a stock market crash on our mother’s side. You take your Germany, France, and Spain, roll 'em all together and it wouldn’t give us room to park our cars. We’re the BIG BOYS, Jack. The original, giant, economy-sized, new-and-improved ass-kickers of all time. When we snort coke in Houston, people lose their hats in London. And we’ve got a MasterCard credit limit higher than your piss-ant metric numbers go. You say our country’s never been invaded? You’re right, little buddy. Because I’d like to see the needle-dicked foreigners who’d have the balls to try. We drink napalm to get our hearts started in the morning. A rape and a mugging is our way of saying “Cheerio.” Hell can’t hold our sock hops. We walk taller, talk louder, spit further, fuck longer and buy more things than you know the names of. I’d rather be a junkie in a New York City jail than king, queen and jack of all you Europeans. We eat little countries like yours for breakfast and shit them out before lunch. We’re the lords of the shitheap and don’t you forget it. G’DAMN STRAIGHT!!! ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/33 "2001-06-14T17:37:44Z")
**Goboy** , a couple of things. First, you’re the second non-native in the past week or so to describe Amsterdam in such glowing terms. I had always been under the impression that it was kind of dirty, not all that interesting, and generally not up to the levels of a Paris or a Prague or even a Rotterdam. Have I had a mistaken impression all this time? Should I pop by Amsterdam post haste to rectify my error? Let me know, since cheap summer airfares are just starting. Second, I’m normally a pretty moral guy – shall not steal, shall not kill, etc. But please consider this: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\* …as a mermaid is on rollerskating._\* To be stolen. I am _so_ going to use that line! ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/34 "2001-06-14T18:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I had always been under the impression that it was kind of dirty, not all that interesting, and generally not up to the levels of a Paris or a Prague or even a Rotterdam. I totally dug Amsterdam. A The Rijksmuseum, chockfull of Hals, Van Eycks, Vermeers, and Rembrandts. B. The Van Gogh Museum C. The Rembrandt House D. The Stedelijk Museum of Modern Art E. The Tattoo Museum F. Drake’s (The biggest all-gay store I have ever seen) G. The men. Dutch men are HOT! H The cool Indonesian restaurants I Great place for cheap airfares to Asia and Africa It’s a very walkable city and it’s a lot cleaner than Paris or London. It has a funky boho section if that’s what you want, it has a cosmopolitan selection of restaurants, and it’s very welcoming to gay folk. I definitely recommned a trip. and you have full permission to use any of my lines. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/35 "2001-06-14T18:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by puddleglum \* > Germany- We can have restrict business until there are thousands of angry, unemployed young people, we can then convince them to shave their heads and attack foreigners. > > The Netherlands- We can legalize drugs and prostitution and turn our biggest city into an internationally reknowned cesspool. Hey you know what? I actually asked a disgruntled German why it seems they don’t like us and his answer was “You still think we’re all NAZI”. Stupidly, I answered “No we don’t” Thanks for proving him right. I’d also like to add that prostitutes in Amsterdam pay taxes on their income, are constantly tested for disease and have organized union representation. Hardly the ‘cesspool’ you describe. From the limited knowledge I have of Amsterdam (where’s Clog Boy when we need him?) it strikes me as a little bit harder core Las Vegas. I, for one, would like to see prostitution legalized in the U.S. How do we get Europe to like us? Well, we could distance ourselves as far as we could from people like you, and make sure Europe gets the memo. jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/36 "2001-06-14T18:47:58Z")
> [@](#): > > …prostitutes in Amsterdam pay taxes on their income, are constantly tested for disease and have organized union representation. Dare I ask where they put the union label? Or is that part of that whole tatoo museum thing **goboy** mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/37 "2001-06-14T19:36:18Z")
I _was_ going to come back with this huge ranting reply (it’s still all lined up in my head), but then i thought, “what’s the fucking point?”. I’m all for fighting ignorance but this isn’t just ignorance, it’s wilful offensiveness. Fuck it, that’s not worth my time. On a different note… I went to Amsterdam a few years ago and loved it. The architecture’s wicked. Fran ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/38 "2001-06-14T21:41:44Z")
Here’s Clog Boy. But now I’m too late. Y’all have done an excellent job refuting the “statements” about the Netherlands in the OP. Well, maybe **manny** needs a little enlightment. Dude. _Rotterdam_ beats Amsterdam? That hurts, man. When was the last time you were here? Granted, the city WAS a lot dirtier in the early 80’s. But that’s all gone now. Should you ever be in the area again, I’d be more than happy to show you around. I always call it “the smallest metropolitan area in the world”. 750,000 inhabitants, easy to navigate on foot or bike, and the cultural diversity of much bigger cities. And yes, the prostitutes pay taxes. It’s a condoned profession (technically, it isn’t 100% legal - but that’s a minor detail), why shouldn’t they pay taxes? Owners of coffee shops pay taxes too. Cesspool? Killing the elderly? Murdering handicaped babies? Sweet Jesus, **puddlegum**. What the fuck is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/39 "2001-06-14T22:03:32Z")
Hey **PuddleofPiss** – Talking as someone who has visited your country on quite a few occasions as well as all of Europe, I really think you should do yourself a favour and buy a passport because it is painfully clear you don’t know a damn think about that of which you speak. You’re sad and ignorant, dude. So _very_ sad, so _very, very_ ignorant. Is this a good moment to mention Amsterdam’s Banana Bar ? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2001, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717/40 "2001-06-14T22:05:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Granted, the city WAS a lot dirtier in the early 80’s. \*\* Hey! I spent a coupla weeks in Amsterdam back in 1980, when I was 19 ( **Coldfire** was probably still in rubber pants at the time) and I thought everything was JUST FINE. Great goddam city to be in when you’re 19: excellent music, excellent dope, excellent beer, excellent women, and you can quote me on that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-get-europe-to-like-us/68717.md?page=3)