# How do we know for certain Jesus really lived? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 17, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978 "2019-12-17T04:42:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/102 "2019-12-18T09:34:57Z")
The actual \*existence \*of Jesus or a person around whom Christianity was constructed is not actually that interesting to this atheist. It would be unremarkable. What would be remarkable are supernatural occurrences, miracles etc. and I don’t see how the mundane (but still uncertain) existence of a first century rebel preacher lends any greater weight to that. Consider, we know to a close-certainty that Kim il Sung was a real person, we have writings about him and eye-witness accounts that dwarf anything the biblical texts can muster. What then are we to make of the miraculous claims about his life? If there is any consistency then surely we should give them the same weight as anything Jesus did? To **DrDeth** , what do you think the existence of a historical Jesus would prove? Why is it important to you? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/103 "2019-12-18T10:24:10Z")
> [@caryoka](#): > > But then I say, if HE is not then how do we explain the miracles that happened or happening? Said miracles need no explanation as they did not happen. If you claim they did, then prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/104 "2019-12-18T10:56:14Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Said miracles need no explanation as they did not happen. If you claim they did, then prove it. The reasoning goes, If there were miracles, there must have been a miraculous person behind it, if there was a miraculous person then it follows that they would have been able to perform miracles. The same circular reasoning is behind the bible, the stories in the books prove that there was a god and if there was a god then of course they could have dictated or inspired the writing of the book within which we find evidence for god…and so on…and so on If you start from a position of believing in gods and miracles then you can easily accept the stories as backing up that position. If you don’t start with that assumption then the evidence of the literature is weak indeed. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/105 "2019-12-18T14:23:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The actual \*existence \*of Jesus or a person around whom Christianity was constructed is not actually that interesting to this atheist… To **DrDeth** , what do you think the existence of a historical Jesus would prove? Why is it important to you? I am not **Dr Deth** ; may I answer? The historicity of Jesus is not “important” to me (another atheist). It is however _interesting_. Reading about it is _fun_ and stimulating. _Many_ mysteries of human history and prehistory are _interesting_ to me. The huge importance of Christianity to Western Civilization makes the Jesus questions especially interesting. I also find the question of “King” Arthur’s historicity to be interesting. That does NOT mean I’m embarking on a hunt for the Holy Grail! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/106 "2019-12-18T14:35:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have books and articles. you counter with a freaken YOUTUBE cite?? :dubious::rolleyes: **By a well known atheist?** > > Geez, “language they were written in”? Really? You hang your hat on that old chestnut? Other than Julius Caesar, few worthys actually put pent to paper, they employed scribes and secretaries. > > John pretty much claims to have been written by the “beloved Apostle” . > > The big argument for John not being written by that Apostle is that it is full of Gnostic theology (more or less true). And Gnosticism was thought to be around well after AD100, thus John , who \*at the max \*died in 105 AD, could not have penned it. But the Dead Sea scrolls proved that theory totally wrong. Gnosticism was alive and well in the later parts of the 1st Century. (Bolding mine) So Ehrman’s atheism somehow invalidates his scholarly opinion? If so, we can discount everything written by any Christian researcher, as well. FWIW, Ehrman’s a historicist and thinks Jesus was a real person. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/107 "2019-12-18T14:48:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I am not **Dr Deth** ; may I answer? The historicity of Jesus is not “important” to me (another atheist). It is however _interesting_. Reading about it is _fun_ and stimulating. _Many_ mysteries of human history and prehistory are _interesting_ to me. The huge importance of Christianity to Western Civilization makes the Jesus questions especially interesting. > > I also find the question of “King” Arthur’s historicity to be interesting. That does NOT mean I’m embarking on a hunt for the Holy Grail! 😛 I maybe wasn’t quite clear enough in my question, I was asking more why it is important to **DrDeth** that Jesus definitely \*was \*a real person. From your POV Septimus I think you state that it isn’t important for him to be real, but that exploring the pros and cons may be interesting. That’s fair enough. I’ve found it interesting to read up on Dickens’s characters and the possible real-life inspirations for them but I attach no particular importance to the historical existence of Miss Havisham or Pip. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/108 "2019-12-18T14:50:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **TonySinclair** : > > Most translations I’ve seen say “country” rather than “hometown,” but in any case, he’s wrong. > > Zoroastrianism: founded by a Persian, became very popular in Persia > Buddhism: founded by an Indian, became very popular in India > Islam: founded by an Arab, became very popular in Arabia > Confucianism and Taoism: founded by Chinese, became very popular in China > Christianity: founded by a Jew, became popular in Rome, Greece, Asia Minor, and other places far enough from Israel that nobody could dispute the stories, but not Israel itself. Why the change in scope? China and India are _huge_. By that standard, you’d have to say that Christianity was founded by a Mediterranean, and became very popular around the Mediterranean. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/109 "2019-12-18T15:03:34Z")
The point is, Luke, written some time after Christianity failed to take off among Jews (a religion mostly localized to the area where Jesus and his most immediate followers lived), conveniently contains a line given as an admonition that a True Prophet TM will not be accepted where he is from. While perhaps harkening back to past OT prophets who were shunned for a time, it also serves as a convenient retro-prophecy for Jesus and his (lack of) acceptance by all but a relatively small contingent of other Jews. It’s not a prophecy, of course, because “Luke” put it in his mouth after he was already dead, along with any chance of ever being seen as a Jewish Messiah in the traditional sense of a powerful, very human leader of the Jews on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/110 "2019-12-18T15:03:35Z")
I guess the answer depends on what question you are asking: Was there a person named Yshua/Joshua/Jesus who lived in Galilee at the right time? Certainly. It was a common name in the region. Was there such a person who was a preacher and a healer and had followers and was executed by Rome for treason? Extremely likely. The area was chock-a-block full of itinerant healers/preachers/messiah-wannabes. Do we have really really solid proof? No. But it’s vastly more likely that some person existed and was the basis for the Gospels than not. Did that person raise the dead, argue with Satan, and return from the dead? There’s no evidence for that outside the gospels, and I, personally, think it’s extremely unlikely. Did kings attend the baby’s birth and give him royal presents? Are all the other stories in the Gospels literally true? Almost certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/111 "2019-12-18T16:06:28Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > And a general comment – I am amazed that anyone thought my first post was not meant to be ironic. [Poe’s Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law): Without a clear indicator of the author’s intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the views being parodied. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/112 "2019-12-18T16:20:37Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > The point is, Luke, written some time after Christianity failed to take off among Jews (a religion mostly localized to the area where Jesus and his most immediate followers lived), conveniently contains a line given as an admonition that a True Prophet TM will not be accepted where he is from. … The “prophet … honor … except” quotation is found in _Matthew, Mark_ and _John_. > [@Mark's Gospel 6:2-6](#): > > And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. For those who think Mark’s Gospel was part of a hoax, what did the hoaxsters intend to gain by inventing this episode? [An account of another unsuccessful outing was deleted from Mark at some point.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Gospel_of_Mark#Lacuna_in_the_trip_to_Jericho) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/113 "2019-12-18T16:55:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > > > Not all atheists feel the need to persuade anyone to their camp. Atheism is not a proselytizing religion. Further, the chief argument for atheism is that there is no objective reason to think there are supernatural beings, and that gods are an invention of the human imagination. But even if you could prove there was no Jesus, it would not prove there is no God. In fact, you can’t prove there is no God (see also: Flying Spaghetti Monster). > > Quibble: you’re capitalizing “God” here. That capital letter makes it a proper name, which strongly implies that you’re talking about a _specific_ god, the christian one - which comes with a bunch of other assumptions about its properties, abilities, and personality. Well, in that instance I \*was \*talking about the Christian god because I was talking about Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/114 "2019-12-18T18:09:53Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Alas, DrDeth is coming from a seemingly unshakable position—not at all recognized as the consensus among scholars—that John not only saw Jesus, but authored the gospel attributed to him as an eyewitness. I gave cites that shows that now the new theory is that John was part of writing it. No one yet has shown there is any kind of “consensus” that John was not the author, in fact the opposite. Like I said, previously the thought was that since the Gospel shows clear Gnostic tendencies, and that did start until later, it couldnt be : but now the Dead sea scrolls have shown otherwise. That was the main argument agains John and his Gospel, and it’s dead. Note that doesnt mean the Apostle wrote Revelations, he almost certainly didnt. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/115 "2019-12-18T18:15:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > …? > > To **DrDeth** , what do you think the existence of a historical Jesus would prove? Why is it important to you? It simply proves Jesus existed. It’s important to me as it’s the truth and I like to fight ignorance and falsehoods. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/116 "2019-12-18T18:19:08Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Said miracles need no explanation as they did not happen. If you claim they did, then prove it. So you’re saying that despite the hundreds of scientific studies that prove placebos can actually work, you are alone in thinking they cant? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/117 "2019-12-18T18:44:33Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The “prophet … honor … except” quotation is found in _Matthew, Mark_ and _John_. > For those who think Mark’s Gospel was part of a hoax, what did the hoaxsters intend to gain by inventing this episode? > [An account of another unsuccessful outing was deleted from Mark at some point.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Gospel_of_Mark#Lacuna_in_the_trip_to_Jericho) As **Smapti** pointed out in Post #77, it’s not a question of a conscious hoax; the mythicists think the Gospels are the records of, well, a mythic figure. The idea that mythicists think the Jesus story is a deliberate con job is a strawman argument. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/118 "2019-12-18T18:53:08Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > The idea that mythicists think the Jesus story is a deliberate con job is a strawman argument. Well, to be fair, some do. It’s a spectrum, from the Gospels as inerrant truth written by the Holy Spirit through the hand of man, to a deliberate Hoax thought up by the Romans as late as the fourth century. Both extremes are, of course, absurd. The difference is, we’ve been culturally conditioned to just nod and smile when someone tries to pass on the former as true, but the latter is rightly subjected to skepticism and scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/119 "2019-12-18T18:58:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It simply proves Jesus existed. It’s important to me as it’s the truth and I like to fight ignorance and falsehoods. Well, a dude named Jeshua existed. Jesus is either a mythic figure based on Jeshua, or a calcified translation error, depending on your level of pedantry. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So you’re saying that despite the hundreds of scientific studies that prove placebos can actually work, you are alone in thinking they cant? Placebos aren’t miracles. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/120 "2019-12-18T19:08:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, a dude named Jeshua existed. Jesus is either a mythic figure based on Jeshua, or a calcified translation error, depending on your level of pedantry. > > Placebos aren’t miracles. Faith healing is a type of placebo. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/121 "2019-12-18T19:46:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Faith healing is a type of placebo. Have you got any evidence that faith healing has actually worked the way placebos do, because I seem to have the impression that most “faith healing” is just outright fraud. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978.md?page=7)