# How do we know for certain Jesus really lived? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 17, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978 "2019-12-17T04:42:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/122 "2019-12-18T20:13:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Faith healing is a type of placebo. Firstly, “faith healing” as it is seen nowadays is usually performance art intended to fool people. Secondly, where are you going with this? Are you proposing that the placebo effect cured leprosy? Cured death? Are you proposing that the miracles described in the Jesus stories actually happened, as described, but without any divine intervention whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/123 "2019-12-18T20:25:40Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Ever heard of a guy named Joseph Smith? …or William Miller, or Mary Baker Eddy, or Ellen Gould White, or Sun Myung Moon, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/124 "2019-12-18T20:52:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Firstly, “faith healing” as it is seen nowadays is usually performance art intended to fool people. > > Secondly, where are you going with this? Are you proposing that the placebo effect cured leprosy? Cured death? Are you proposing that the miracles described in the Jesus stories actually happened, as described, but without any divine intervention whatsoever? There was a very large-scale experiment done on the efficacy of faith healing in the 14th century, when the Black Death swept through Europe. The vast majority of the population was Christian, and since this was before archaeology, geology, evolution, and pinko hippie professors that poisoned young minds, they had a faith completely unadulterated by doubt. Everyone prayed for the plague to spare their family, their town, their country. But the death rate among Christians was the same as the death rate among Jews, Muslims, and pagans. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/125 "2019-12-18T23:23:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Firstly, “faith healing” as it is seen nowadays is usually performance art intended to fool people. > > Secondly, where are you going with this? Are you proposing that the placebo effect cured leprosy? Cured death? Are you proposing that the miracles described in the Jesus stories actually happened, as described, but without any divine intervention whatsoever? I am saying that the placebo effect- and having someone care if you get better- can explain “healing the sick”. No, it cant cure leprosy, but we know that other skin conditions were lumped in with leprosy too often. Death? Well, maybe he wasnt really dead- that used to happen in olden times. I am not saying Jesus really raised someone from truely dead, but why not “mostly dead”? I am not sure if any of the miracles happened, but yes, faith can cure just as placebos can. So, I am willing to buy a few “healing the sick” “miracles”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/126 "2019-12-18T23:25:14Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > There was a very large-scale experiment done on the efficacy of faith healing in the 14th century, when the Black Death swept through Europe. … But the death rate among Christians was the same as the death rate among Jews, Muslims, and pagans. Sure, placeboes arent going to cure the Black Death. But we have no idea what the “death rate among Jews, Muslims, and pagans” was, either. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/127 "2019-12-18T23:29:57Z")
> **[Psychology at the Turn of the Millennium, Volume 2](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=rCB5AgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA225&dq=faith%2Bhealing%2Bplacebo%2B&ots=blt8MNdzBO&sig=FiDaBqZJprtkhOK5MJuP_UR07AE#v=onepage&q=faith%20healing%20placebo&f=false)** > > These two volumes represent the cutting edge of contemporary theory and research in psychological science. Based on the keynote and state-of-the-art lectures from the 27th International Congress of Psychology, the volumes feature a collection of... [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-9566.ep10777362](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-9566.ep10777362) [https://www.jstor.org/stable/649436?seq=1](https://www.jstor.org/stable/649436?seq=1) These show belief can act as the placebo effect. I thought that was obvious, but … ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/128 "2019-12-18T23:31:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am saying that the placebo effect- and having someone care if you get better- can explain “healing the sick”. > > No, it cant cure leprosy, but we know that other skin conditions were lumped in with leprosy too often. > > Death? Well, maybe he wasnt really dead- that used to happen in olden times. I am not saying Jesus really raised someone from truely dead, but why not “mostly dead”? > > I am not sure if any of the miracles happened, but yes, faith can cure just as placebos can. So, I am willing to buy a few “healing the sick” “miracles”. Right, but what’s your _point?_ The notion that there were dozens of itinerant preachers wandering around “healing” people and doing “miracles” is uncontested. Arguing that it’s possible that somebody could have been going around doing it is not proof of anything, and arguing that a dude named Jeshua might have been going around doing it doesn’t prove that the specific Jeshua you postulate existed. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/129 "2019-12-19T01:00:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [Who Wrote the Gospels, and How Do We Know for… | Zondervan Academic](https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/who-wrote-gospels) FTR, Zondervan is a Evangelical Christian publisher and I’m not sure that Catholics wouldn’t look askance at what they publish, much less the nonreligious. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/130 "2019-12-19T01:00:47Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Maybe, but in 1973,[a fire at the National Personnel Records Center destroyed an estimated 16-18 million military service files.](https://www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/fire-1973) It’s estimated because the index was also destroyed, meaning they didn’t even know what they had to start with. > > There may have been a direct, official, Roman record that some guy named Jesus was indeed crucified. And it may well have been destroyed in the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Or in any of seven separate events over 1400 years, each known as the “Sack of Rome.” Or in any of a hundred natural or manmade disasters. > > Heck, my grandfather claimed to have been born in rural Hungary in 1882. We can’t even find any direct record for that (we did find a baptismal certificate for my grandmother, though.) Nothing to do with Jesus, but _my_ grandfather was born in rural Hungary in 1882. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/131 "2019-12-19T02:58:13Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > …Heck, my grandfather claimed to have been born in rural Hungary in 1882. We can’t even find any direct record for that (we did find a baptismal certificate for my grandmother, though.) Are you sure your grandfather existed? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/132 "2019-12-19T04:13:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Right, but what’s your _point?_ > > The notion that there were dozens of itinerant preachers wandering around “healing” people and doing “miracles” is uncontested. Arguing that it’s possible that somebody could have been going around doing it is not proof of anything, and arguing that a dude named Jeshua might have been going around doing it doesn’t prove that the specific Jeshua you postulate existed. Other than the mentions in the New Testament, Josephus and Tacitus. And sure the NT is biased. But we believe the lists of Pharaoh’s (from Narmer on) found on the walls of temples and tombs- tombs with a 100% religious purpose. We dont believe any of them were gods, however. We believe in what Caesar wrote and that he was a real person, but we dont think he was a God either. We believe Socrates was a real person, and we believe what Plato said about him- even tho there is very little known about Socrates that doesnt come from his followers. It’s fine to think that Jesus wasnt the Son of God and have doubts about the miracles. The birth legends are certainly doubtful too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/133 "2019-12-19T04:18:06Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > FTR, Zondervan is a Evangelical Christian publisher and I’m not sure that Catholics wouldn’t look askance at what they publish, much less the nonreligious. Sure, but it’s well written with some cites, etc. And one of several sources i gave. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/134 "2019-12-19T04:31:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Right, but what’s your _point?_ > > The notion that there were dozens of itinerant preachers wandering around “healing” people and doing “miracles” is uncontested. He wouldn’t even have been the only person named “Jesus” doing so. The Talmud documents a Jesus ben Stada who was hanged for heresy in the 2nd century BC, as well as a Jesus the Sorcerer who was stoned and hanged in 63 BC. Notably, _both_ of them are said to have been executed on the eve of Passover, implying that Jesus of Nazareth’s story may have been partially inspired by them. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/135 "2019-12-19T07:43:11Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > There may have been a direct, official, Roman record that some guy named Jesus was indeed crucified. Archaeologists have recently unearthed that record. Curiously, it has a notation that roughly translates as, “Unlike Trumpus Magnus, he had the opportunity to face his accusers.” > **[Republicans Are Comparing Trump's Impeachment To Jesus' Crucifixion, Pearl...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/addybaird/republicans-trump-impeachment-jesus-pearl-harbor-witch)** > > "Pontius Pilate afforded more rights to Jesus than the Democrats have afforded this president and this process." ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/136 "2019-12-19T07:56:54Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Firstly, “faith healing” as it is seen nowadays is usually performance art intended to fool people. > > Secondly, where are you going with this? Are you proposing that the placebo effect cured leprosy? Cured death? Are you proposing that the miracles described in the Jesus stories actually happened, as described, but without any divine intervention whatsoever? Thirdly, why are so many ignorant of the powers of hypnosis? Google isn’t so ignorant: > [@National Institute of Health](#): > > There are currently no established treatments for Morgellons Disease. The following case example depicts treatment of a woman with Morgellons Disease using hypnotherapy. Data from this case example suggest that hypnotherapy is a promising intervention for the physical and psychological symptoms associated with Morgellons Disease. Sorry, I’ve no info on the use of hypnosis to cure non-skin diseases. I Googled “hypnosis cured skin disease” because of Albert Mason’s famous intervention in 1951, for which links include: > **[brmedj03456-0026.pdf](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2021155/pdf/brmedj03456-0026.pdf)** [http://www.bbk.ac.uk/hiddenpersuaders/blog/albert-mason-medicine-magic-hypnotism/](http://www.bbk.ac.uk/hiddenpersuaders/blog/albert-mason-medicine-magic-hypnotism/) > **[If This be Magic: The Forgotten Power of Hypnosis by Guy Lyon Playfair |...](http://whitecrowbooks.com/books/sample/if_this_be_magic_the_forgotten_power_of_hypnosis)** > > In 1951, a young hospital doctor treated a patient suffering from a rare and debilitating skin disease - thought to be incurable - with a single session of hypnosis, unaware that he was about to make medical history. The case caused a sensation.... Thus, \*\*\*hypnotists can be healers. \*\*\* Many thinkers believe that 2000 years ago susceptibility to psychosomatic disorders (e.g. “possession by the devil”) was more common than in today’s world. The same people would have been suceptible to hypnotic cures. A charismatic hypnotist doesn’t need elaborate rituals, nor to put a patient into an obious trance. I do not know what medical knowledge Jesus possessed. I strongly suspect that much of the healing done by him and his disciples was based on psychology, probably variations on hypnosis. (For a good hypnotist, convincing an already inebriated group that the water they were drinking was wine would be child’s play!) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/137 "2019-12-19T09:13:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Thirdly, why are so many ignorant of the powers of hypnosis? Google isn’t so ignorant: > Sorry, I’ve no info on the use of hypnosis to cure non-skin diseases. Morgellon’s isn’t a skin disease, it’s delusional parasitosis. Of course a mental disorder can be healed by convincing the person they’re not sick anymore. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/138 "2019-12-19T09:53:23Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Morgellon’s isn’t a skin disease, it’s delusional parasitosis. Of course a mental disorder can be healed by convincing the person they’re not sick anymore. OK. Itr was one of the top hits on the “skin disease” Google so I cut-pasted the NIH remark. _ **Did you look at the three linked pages discussing Mason’s amazing cure?** _ ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/139 "2019-12-19T11:48:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > OK. Itr was one of the top hits on the “skin disease” Google so I cut-pasted the NIH remark. _ **Did you look at the three linked pages discussing Mason’s amazing cure?** _ Yes, and I don’t see how it’s necessarily related to Jesus. There’s a possibility, sure, but it’s a big leap to say it must have happened, when the more parsimonious answer is that his miracle cures were made up out of whole cloth, like his walking on water and the loaves-and-fishes routine. There doesn’t have to be any facts whatsoever behind pious lies. People back then could just make shit up, too. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/140 "2019-12-19T12:02:55Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Yes, and I don’t see how it’s necessarily related to Jesus. There’s a possibility, sure, but it’s a big leap to say it must have happened, when the more parsimonious answer is that his miracle cures were made up out of whole cloth, like his walking on water and the loaves-and-fishes routine. There doesn’t have to be any facts whatsoever behind pious lies. People back then could just make shit up, too. I wrote “I strongly suspect that much of the healing done by him and his disciples was based on psychology, probably variations on hypnosis”; if that translates to “must have happened” then we’re speaking different English dialects. With the near-contemporary evidence of Jesus’ healing so vivid — _it’s the primary claim made about Jesus in the Gospels_ — and the historicity of Jesus accepted by most scholars, then we’ll have to agree to disagree about criteria for “more parsimonious answer”, as well. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/141 "2019-12-19T12:46:17Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@TonySinclair](#): > > Archaeologists have recently unearthed that record. Curiously, it has a notation that roughly translates as, “Unlike Trumpus Magnus, he had the opportunity to face his accusers.” > > [Republicans Compare Trump Impeachment To Jesus' Crucifixion, Pearl Harbor, And Salem Witch Trials](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/addybaird/republicans-trump-impeachment-jesus-pearl-harbor-witch) This thread is about Jesus. Republicans comparing Trump to Jesus has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss Trump or the Republicans (or anything else in current politics), please do so in a more appropriate thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978.md?page=8)