# How do we know for certain Jesus really lived? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 17, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978 "2019-12-17T04:42:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/142 "2019-12-19T14:49:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I wrote “I strongly suspect that much of the healing done by him and his disciples was based on psychology, probably variations on hypnosis”; if that translates to “must have happened” then we’re speaking different English dialects. Your statement only makes sense in the context of assuming the healing took place. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/143 "2019-12-19T15:21:03Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Your statement only makes sense in the context of assuming the healing took place. 😕 Assuming the healing _ **might** _ have taken place. Useless word games are down the hall, take a left turn, straight on till morning. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/144 "2019-12-19T15:45:23Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I strongly suspect that much of the healing done by him and his disciples was based on psychology, probably variations on hypnosis This makes two assumptions for which there is no evidence: 1. That any actual healing was done at all, and 2. That hypnosis played any factor at all. When you hear of “healings” done by modern faith healers, do you assume that healings actually are happening? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/145 "2019-12-19T16:19:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This makes two assumptions for which there is no evidence: > > 1. That any actual healing was done at all, and > 2. That hypnosis played any factor at all. > > When you hear of “healings” done by modern faith healers, do you assume that healings actually are happening? I’d like it if the quote being replied to here wasn’t falsely attributed to me. Although it _does_ provide an interesting example of how documentary evidence can get corrupted. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/146 "2019-12-19T16:20:54Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > But the basic point — that a specific Jesus of Nazareth achieved fame as a healer and/or preacher, probably caused a disturbance in the Temple, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate — must be _at least_ 95 to 99%, rather than, say, 65 to 85%. You claim that it’s \>95% likely that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was a famous healer. You then claim that: > [@](#): > > much of the healing done by him was psychological in basis. Now, you’re saying that the unspoken assumption that the healing actually happened is “word games”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/147 "2019-12-19T16:27:53Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I’d like it if the quote being replied to here wasn’t falsely attributed to me. > > Although it _does_ provide an interesting example of how documentary evidence can get corrupted. Sorry about that, screwed over again by defective cut-and-pasting. The quote was actually from **septimus**. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/148 "2019-12-19T16:43:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that the ancient Romans kept good records (which 99.999% of which have been destroyed) and when the Christian cult started up, all they had to do is just show that the records show no such Crucifixion. They didnt do so. Why not? Well, becuase their records showed he did, and enuf people were around that had met Him in the flesh that the Romans would have gotten the horselaugh. This might be the worst argument that has ever been made for a historical Jesus (and this is coming from an atheist that doesn’t doubt that he existed). How, exactly, would the Romans “show” that the records don’t reference the crucifixion? “Hey, everyone, this is bullshit and we can prove it: if you travel 1,100 miles to Jerusalem and inspect the vital statistics tablets, you’ll see why didn’t crucify Jesus. But if you don’t want to go, just take out word for it.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/149 "2019-12-19T16:47:33Z")
How do we know Elvis really existed? Oh wait, the black velvet paintings. Well that’s proof enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/150 "2019-12-19T17:54:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This might be the worst argument that has ever been made for a historical Jesus (and this is coming from an atheist that doesn’t doubt that he existed). How, exactly, would the Romans “show” that the records don’t reference the crucifixion? “Hey, everyone, this is bullshit and we can prove it: if you travel 1,100 miles to Jerusalem and inspect the vital statistics tablets, you’ll see why didn’t crucify Jesus. But if you don’t want to go, just take out word for it.” They didnt have to show the records. They could have just claimed Jesus never existed. They made up other scurrilous lies about Him and his worhipers, so why not claim he never existed? Why wasnt it until around the 20th century that anyone made that claim? Rise of atheism , that’s why. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/151 "2019-12-19T18:36:21Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You claim that it’s \>95% likely that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was a famous healer. You then claim that: was psychological in basis. > > Now, you’re saying that the unspoken assumption that the healing actually happened is “word games”. _Does anyone here think my posts are better than nonsensical?_ **If so, Please state it publicly — I could use the feedback.** If mine are too incomprehensible or blatantly wrong for any defense, I’d better withdraw from the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/152 "2019-12-19T18:39:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _Does anyone here think my posts are better than nonsensical?_ **If so, Please state it publicly — I could use the feedback.** If mine are too incomprehensible or blatantly wrong for any defense, I’d better withdraw from the thread. Your posts make sense. The problem is that they assume something which has not been proven. When someone points this out to you, you accuse them of playing word games. What do they assume? That Jesus healed people. You’re trying to explain how Jesus could have healed people. The problem we’re having is that there’s no good evidence Jesus healed people. Therefore, the simplest explanation is that his healings are completely mythological. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/153 "2019-12-19T18:51:02Z")
And/or fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/154 "2019-12-19T19:05:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And/or fraudulent. “Fraud” is such a fraught term. If there’s no expectation that religious stories be factually accurate, or an expectation that drawing people into the faith is more important than facts, a pious lie would be seen as laudable, especially if it can be used as a parable to illustrate some point the author sees as important. People back then knew the difference between truth and lies, but the line between a harmless or benevolent lie and a fraud is always in flux. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/155 "2019-12-19T19:15:11Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > “Fraud” is such a fraught term. If there’s no expectation that religious stories be factually accurate, or an expectation that drawing people into the faith is more important than facts, a pious lie would be seen as laudable, especially if it can be used as a parable to illustrate some point the author sees as important. People back then knew the difference between truth and lies, but the line between a harmless or benevolent lie and a fraud is always in flux. People back then were just as susceptible to advance agents pretending to innocent bystanders telling wondrous tales, staged “miracles”, and audience prepping as are the audience of faith healers today, and they didn’t have to ability to check out claims online. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/156 "2019-12-19T19:36:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They didnt have to show the records. They could have just claimed Jesus never existed. They made up other scurrilous lies about Him and his worhipers, so why not claim he never existed? Why wasnt it until around the 20th century that anyone made that claim? Rise of atheism , that’s why. Why would the romans bother to attempt to convince people that he didn’t exist, again? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/157 "2019-12-19T21:45:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > People back then were just as susceptible to advance agents pretending to innocent bystanders telling wondrous tales, staged “miracles”, and audience prepping as are the audience of faith healers today, and they didn’t have to ability to check out claims online. And it was standard procedure, not just with religions but with those writing about the natural world or those writing history. I read a (recent) biography if Alexander the Great which noted that historians living not long after him attributed miracles to him. And remember, Parson Weems attributed miracles to Washington just a year after he died. Of course people would attribute miracles to Jesus after he died. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/158 "2019-12-19T22:06:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They didnt have to show the records. They could have just claimed Jesus never existed. They made up other scurrilous lies about Him and his worhipers, so why not claim he never existed? Because, again, his existence isn’t important. His existence doesn’t make the miracle tales any more credible, because we have abundant examples of miracle tales about other people that nobody believes, in spite of having no doubt that those people existed. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/159 "2019-12-19T22:12:23Z")
The attribution of miracles to persons who may well have never performed them can also be seen by looking at Paul. “Luke” in _Acts_ gives several instances of Paul healing or something similar. What about Paul in his own writings? Nada. He never lists a single act of him healing anyone. He barely mentions healing and similar deeds. In _1 Corinthians_ he lists healing as one of the gifts of the Spirit. And that’s the most explicit he is. Furthermore, he comes across a couple of sick folk (Trophimus and Epaphroditus) and doesn’t heal them. It seems that Paul didn’t heal anyone. (And didn’t seem to think Jesus healing anyone either happened or was notable.) And yet a mythos of him healing folk soon sprung up after his death. _Acts_, from a historians point of view is a mess. It clearly deviates from the known historical information many times. More so than any comparable text in the _New Testament_. So trying to assert any historical truths from it is problematical. And this is from the author of _Luke_ which people take as … gospel. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/160 "2019-12-19T23:25:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Why would the romans bother to attempt to convince people that he didn’t exist, again? Because the Christians were a thorn in their side. They spread rumors like Jesus was the bastard son of a roman soldier and such. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978/161 "2019-12-19T23:26:15Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Because, again, his existence isn’t important. His existence doesn’t make the miracle tales any more credible, because we have abundant examples of miracle tales about other people that nobody believes, in spite of having no doubt that those people existed. Then why do so many atheists work so hard to spread their idea that Jesus never existed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-for-certain-jesus-really-lived/844978.md?page=9)