# How do we know old/ancient pronunciations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 27, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223 "2018-04-27T15:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/41 "2018-05-04T19:56:32Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you just mean how do we know what people were speaking 6000 years ago before writing was invented, here’s the article on Proto-Indo-European. [Proto-Indo-European language - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) Just FYI, if you’re interested in video games, the game Far Cry Primal is voice-acted in Proto-Indo-European. (With subtitles, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/42 "2018-05-04T21:25:37Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That seems to stem in part from the idea that sign-based communication will always be inherently inferior to voice-based. It’s not necessarily so. Surely if there were _expressive_ sign languages before vocalized ones, we’d see some traces of it in extant languages? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/43 "2018-05-04T21:59:43Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The short answer is we started with the Rosetta Stone. Not only did it provide a way for us to translate the hieroglyphs, but it also provided a lot of clues about pronunciation. You start by looking at names and how they are spelled out or symbolized in each language. For a comical take on this idea: The second picture on this [website](http://manmartin.blogspot.com/2012/06/asterix.html) is hard to read, but the fourth (bottom left) panel shows the recurring Egyptian character in Asterix, who speaks in hieroglyphics, identifying himself. His name is pronounced Ptenisnet, and the hieroglyphic looks just like it sounds. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/44 "2018-05-05T20:58:02Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > and Dutch has “us”. I meant to say, Dutch has **ons**. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/45 "2018-05-06T00:42:27Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That seems to stem in part from the idea that sign-based communication will always be inherently inferior to voice-based. It’s not necessarily so. I would go further and say that it’s necessarily _not_ so. As I imagine you’re quite aware, sign languages are “full” languages and often quite distinct from geographically adjacent spoken languages. In other words, sign languages aren’t simply gesture-transliterated spoken languages. For example, American Sign Language is closer in syntax and grammar to spoken French than it is to spoken English. (At least, that’s what I’ve read). Also, functional MRI research shows that speaking in sign language lights up the same regions of the brain as the same activity in spoken languages. (Again, this is my lay understanding). That said, I think the original comment might stand. KK Fusion referred to “verbal” communication. Since sign language is neurologically indistinct from spoken language, I’d argue that they’re both “verbal.” If the distinction being made is between language and ad-hoc gestures, it seems that sign language is obviously on the “language” side of that divide. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/46 "2018-05-06T01:09:29Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Sometimes music with lyrics can help too. > > e.g in _This is the Record of John_ by Orlando Gibbons (early 17th century), you can see from the music that -ed at the end of words was usually pronounced as a separate syllable. > > “And he confess-ed and deni-ed not” > “And they ask-ed him…” Jonathan Swift complained about the shift to the current way of pronouncing words like “kissed” and “disturbed” (as “kist” and “disturbd” writing: " These Gentlemen, although they could not be insensible how much our Language was already overstocked with Monosyllables; yet, to same Time and Pains, introduced that barbarous Custom of abbreviating Words, to fit them to the Measure of their Verses; and this they have frequently done, so very injudiciously, as to form such harsh unharmonious Sounds, that none but a Northern Ear could endure: They have joined the most obdurate Consonants without one intervening Vowel, only to shorten a Syllable: And their Taste in time became so depraved, that what was a first a Poetical Licence, not to be justified, they made their Choice, alledging, that the Words pronounced at length, sounded faint and languid. This was a Pretence to take up the same Custom in Prose; so that most of the Books we see now a-days, are full of those Manglings and Abbreviations. Instances of this Abuse are innumerable: What does Your Lordship think of the Words, Drudg’d, Disturb’d, Rebuk’t, Fledg’d, and a thousand others, every where to be met in Prose as well as Verse? Where, by leaving out a Vowel to save a Syllable, we form so jarring a Sound, and so difficult to utter, that I have often wondred how it could ever obtain. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/47 "2018-05-07T07:24:51Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > Surely if there were _expressive_ sign languages before vocalized ones, we’d see some traces of it in extant languages? You haven’t been to the shores of the Mediterranean, have you? You know that joke about the Italian prisoner who couldn’t speak because his hands had been tied? The first time I heard it, the Americans laughed; the Swedes and the English and the Germans and some of the French laughed. The Spaniards and the Italians and the rest of the French commiserated with the poor prisoner because, hey, really, _how_ do you speak without moving your hands? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/48 "2018-05-08T15:58:11Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I frequently see things like “again” being rhymed with “rain”, and would inform lexicographers of the future that the two words don’t sound at all alike in present-day colloquial American speech. Not currently, but in the not too distant past, among certain classes of people. Franklin D. Roosevelt had a famous speech where he stated, “I have said this before, and I will say it [again and again, and again](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfSU-VGixjM): Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars.” William Safire, writing in [Safire’s New Political Dictionary (1993)](https://www.amazon.com/Safires-Political-Dictionary-William-Safire/dp/0195340612) noted that, _Roosevelt liked the phrase, especially since his own pronunciation of “again” was distinctive in US speech, rhyming with “rain” rather than “when.”_ The pronunciation was then current among people of his age and aristocratic background. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/49 "2018-05-10T14:45:07Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > Then I looked it up in Wikipedia, and apparently they do have an actual name for him: [Uaxaclajuun Ub’aah K’awiil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uaxaclajuun_Ub%27aah_K%27awiil) Now I’m curious how they came to know that name belongs to “18 Rabbit”. (Obviously I’m no linguist; I bet these questions were settled decades ago.) Mainly because that’s how about a[million people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucatec_Maya_language)still say “18 Rabbit.” (Also, many ancient Maya glyphs were partially phonetic, like many Chinese characters.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/50 "2018-05-10T14:53:57Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Right, but those form a digraph. “Th” is pronounced as one sound, because the stock Latin alphabet didn’t have a letter that represented “Th” sounds. Close. The Romans used the digraphs “ph” and “th” to represent exactly what they look like: Greek aspirated “p” and aspirated “t” (that is, “p” or “t” with a puff of air, as we pronounce them in many situations, e.g. “pot,” but not “spot”). Only later did the Greeks shift their pronunciation to the fricatives we associate with these same Greek letters phi and theta, and late Roman (and then English, etc.) followed suit – keeping their spelling (“ph” or “th”), but also changing the pronunciation to today’s familiar fricatives. English then increased the use of “th” to include its own, native, Germanic fricatives, until then written as a thorn or yodh, depending if voiced or not.(“ph” just continued to be used for Greek-derived words, since “f” worked just fine for\* that \*English fricative). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/51 "2018-05-10T14:55:42Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Mainly because that’s how about a[million people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucatec_Maya_language)still say “18 Rabbit.” By this I meant that about a million people still say something very close to _Uaxaclajuun Ub’aah K’awiil_ to express the meaning “18 Rabbit.” ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/52 "2018-05-10T15:34:41Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > English then increased the use of “th” to include its own, native, Germanic fricatives, until then written as a thorn or yodh, depending if voiced or not.(“ph” just continued to be used for Greek-derived words, since “f” worked just fine for\* that \*English fricative). Underlining added. You mean eth or edh. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/53 "2018-05-10T18:14:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Underlining added. You mean eth or edh. Right! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/54 "2018-05-21T07:43:56Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Close. The Romans used the digraphs “ph” and “th” to represent exactly what they look like: Greek aspirated “p” and aspirated “t” (that is, “p” or “t” with a puff of air, as we pronounce them in many situations, e.g. “pot,” but not “spot”). I missed this before. Do you mean that the Romans were using the digraphs to spell Greek words? Or did Latin have aspirated stops? If so that’s interesting given that today Romance languages don’t have any today. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/55 "2018-05-21T07:50:06Z")
Latin had neologisms from Greek, which on occasion included aspirated stops (or tried to, it would depend on the speaker). Same as today’s Romance languages can have them in neologisms from languages with aspirated stops (or at least try to have them). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/56 "2018-05-21T11:59:58Z")
Right — just the borrowed Greek words. If Latin had distinct, native phonemes for these aspirated sounds, it probably would have developed (via Etruscan) letters evolved from Greek “theta” and “phi.” ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/57 "2018-05-21T12:58:20Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > One number I’ve heard is, at least 30.000 years, because from that time we found tools whose use is so complicated that instructions could only be given verbally. Psh, I have worked in a machine shop where with the noise, and required hearing protection had me showing someone how to do stuff hands on and no words. Hells bells, I learn better with hands on training than verbal or written with pictures, many people do. How do you think a mute person trains and a deaf person gets trained? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/58 "2018-05-21T22:09:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Latin had neologisms from Greek, which on occasion included aspirated stops (or tried to, it would depend on the speaker). Same as today’s Romance languages can have them in neologisms from languages with aspirated stops (or at least try to have them). That makes sense to me. Although, as a native English speaker I find it surprisingly difficult to pronounce an unaspirated stop that _ **isn’t** _ preceded by an ‘s’, e.g. /_pin_/ instead of _/p[sup]h[/sup]in/_. I’ve forgotten almost everything I ever knew, from an academic perspective, about foreign language acquisition, but do suspect that certain allophones like this one can be extremely difficult to perceive. You can grow up speaking your native language and yet never become aware of them, unless you take a phonology course. Even more remarkable to me is the fact that there are many languages in which pairs of completely different words may be distinguished only by the presence or absence of aspiration. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223/59 "2018-05-22T12:22:40Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Although, as a native English speaker I find it surprisingly difficult to pronounce an unaspirated stop that _ **isn’t** _ preceded by an ‘s’, e.g. /_pin_/ instead of _/p[sup]h[/sup]in/_. Hence my “try to” 🙂 Last week I got a factory tour courtesy of a Spanish woman whose English is extremely good except that she hasn’t learned to pronounce those /s…/ words without /es/ticking an /e/ in front; I don’t imagine she ever will, since she hasn’t by now. That kind of thing is one of the biggest difficulties of language learning, in part because (as you say) native speakers often can hear differences we’ve got no idea how to explain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-old-ancient-pronunciations/813223.md?page=2)