# How do we know what happen after we died? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410 "2003-03-06T03:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/61 "2003-03-09T20:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*To whom it is concern: > > Skeptics and atheists have zero proof of their positions. Most are based on the theory of evolution, which is, after all, just a theory, not truth, not fact, not proven. And the belief that God doesn’t exist can not be proven either. So your basic positions are not necessarily false, but not truth. For you to insult others, postering as the most intelligent of the species is only to show ignorance not fight it. I suggest their is a great amount to learn on this board for those willing to learn it. > > Love > Leroy \*\* Yes, like grammar and punctuation. Peace, ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/62 "2003-03-09T21:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MixieArmadillo \* > \*\*Yes, like grammar and punctuation. > > Peace, > ~mixie \*\* Yes, it’s true I struggle with english, I am also old, walk with a limp, and really ugly. You can use that in your next post. ---
**Author:** ![yolady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/f04885/32.png) [@yolady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yolady)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/63 "2003-03-09T22:20:37Z")
I think that this world is a place where we find out who we are, specifically we can let our egos rule and basically learn nothing but think we know a lot OR we can stay open and maybe learn at least a little. I have always “known” there are other realities beyond this one. Yes, these are my personal hallucinations but they make more sense to me than nonsensical idea that we can somehow grasp all of reality, smear it on a slide, and peer at it through a microscope. To me, that’s a huge ego trip. Fact is, for each of us, time will tell. We will die and either be somewhere, or not. Doesn’t matter much to me, to tell the truth, although I do think it is wise to at least minimally prepare for the possibility of some kind of continued existence. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/64 "2003-03-09T22:40:41Z")
Occam’s Razor: The simplest explanation tends to be the right one. Examples: Those claiming to be psychics are unable to produce results that are better than the technique known as “cold reading”. The simplest explanation to this is that the psychics claims are not valid. A more complex explanation to the evidence would be that the Skeptic Cold Readers are themselves psychics, and are denying their own psychic powers for some reason and calling it “cold reading” instead. Oxygen deprivation to the brain causes hallucinations. The experience of an NDE is consistant with the hallucinations caused by that deprivation, such as seeing a tunnel. Hallucinations are the simplest explanation to your experience, lekatt. An elaborate afterlife scenerio is not the simplest explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/65 "2003-03-09T23:48:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*That is NOT what I asked! My near death experience was called an hallucination, hallucinations are not supernatural, I am asking for proof that my NDE was a hallucination. If someone can insult me in this manner, and after the real proof I have offered, they can come up with proof themselves, that is a fair way of doing business. Now, where is the proof? \*\* It is not for the skeptic to provide proof, but the claimant. Can you offer real proof that what you experienced was real other than your feelings to that effect? Let’s say I claim my child was fathered by Bigfoot. You say it was not, that Bigfoot doesn’t exist. I can smile smugly and say, “Prove it!” but as I see it, the burden of proof would on me to have a DNA test done on the kid to show that his/her father is not a human, not on others to prove that Bigfoot does not exist. It is not for them to prove me a liar, but on me to prove that I am telling the truth. No offense, but for all we know, you’ve made the whole thing up. Aside from your antecdote, what evidence do we have? Let’s take the woman who supposedly had all of the blood drained from her brain, (and after an exhaustive search I have yet to find ANY procedure which does this.) She claims to have “heard” the doctors. But who’s to say she did not bribe a nurse to tell her what was said and done? What real evidence do we have to prove that she did not make the whole thing up in order to make herself famous and sell books? Stranger things have happened. I’m sure that I could go to the NDE board and post an experience and make up every single detail. Should you take this for fact? Why should you trust me? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/66 "2003-03-10T01:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*It is not for the skeptic to provide proof, but the claimant. Can you offer real proof that what you experienced was real other than your feelings to that effect? > > Let’s say I claim my child was fathered by Bigfoot. You say it was not, that Bigfoot doesn’t exist. I can smile smugly and say, “Prove it!” but as I see it, the burden of proof would on me to have a DNA test done on the kid to show that his/her father is not a human, not on others to prove that Bigfoot does not exist. It is not for them to prove me a liar, but on me to prove that I am telling the truth. > > No offense, but for all we know, you’ve made the whole thing up. Aside from your antecdote, what evidence do we have? > > Let’s take the woman who supposedly had all of the blood drained from her brain, (and after an exhaustive search I have yet to find ANY procedure which does this.) She claims to have “heard” the doctors. But who’s to say she did not bribe a nurse to tell her what was said and done? What real evidence do we have to prove that she did not make the whole thing up in order to make herself famous and sell books? Stranger things have happened. I’m sure that I could go to the NDE board and post an experience and make up every single detail. Should you take this for fact? Why should you trust me? \*\* You didn’t get the message. A Skeptic claimed that my NDE was an hallucination, that is an insult to me, now let them prove their claim, or shut their mouth. When you insult someone you better have a good reason for it, but skeptics don’t have any at all. No proof, evidence, no nothing. They are “fighting ignorance” whatever the hell that means when you have no proof of anything. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/67 "2003-03-10T01:43:09Z")
Well, ok, I got mad. Mainly because skeptics seem to think they can come up with any kind of slanderous insults against psychics and near death experiencers, and the burden of proof is on the psychics. If that is what they teach in school, then don’t listen to them. Everyone is responsible for their own words and actions. You can’t blame others for your inappropriate behaviour the rest of your life. At some point everyone needs to grow up and start treating people with respect. You have every right to disagree with psychics, but no right to curse them. Especially without proof. Now, the Pam Reynolds surgery is the best documented NDE in existence, it is on tape. There were many doctors there. One wrote a book about it. She did not bribe anyone, how ridiculous. If you don’t believe it fine, you have no proof to say it didn’t happen, so don’t. When skeptics start playing by the rules, people will listen, why would anyone take what you made up as real without proof, right. Well the surgery has a ton of proof. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/68 "2003-03-10T01:56:19Z")
> [@](#): > > No proof, evidence, no nothing. They are “fighting ignorance” whatever the hell that means when you have no proof of anything. Lekatt, I am a three headed space alien with eight octupus like tentacles from the plant “Gorgalak.” However, to human eyes and all known methods of testing, I appear like just to be another human. I have made this claim, and people have laughed in my face. I can’t believe they’d say anything so hurtful. How can they say such things? I hope you sympathize with my plight. Those foolish “skeptics” who doubt what I’m saying can’t prove I’m wrong! They have no proof of anything. It’s up to them to prove that I am not a three headed eight tentacled gorgalakian! Love, Blalron ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/69 "2003-03-10T02:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Well, ok, I got mad. Mainly because skeptics seem to think they can come up with any kind of slanderous insults . . .** Much like your claims that others have twisted your words, which you won’t back up by citing the messages. Gee, I’m **so** impressed by your integrity. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/70 "2003-03-10T02:30:05Z")
I think it’s insulting to [claim that Harry Houdini’s wife received a message from him after he died](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2857642#post2857642) when that’s [not true](http://www.foxvalleyhistory.org/spirits.html). ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/71 "2003-03-10T02:41:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*You didn’t get the message. A Skeptic claimed that my NDE was an hallucination, that is an insult to me, now let them prove their claim, or shut their mouth. \*\* No. You prove YOURS. You are the one with something to prove, here. You’re the one missing the message, it seems. If I got insulted every time someone here challenged a theory of mine, I’d spend my life guzzling Malox and muttering in dark corners. This Board is filled with intelligent, learned, people who are \* skeptics. \* No theory goes unchallenged here. It’s nothing personal, and being overly-sensitive will only harm you, and your position. You make an assertion here, you better damn well have something to back it up, or you will get nothing but well-earned scorn. Have a kid if you want someone that will believe everything you say, but you won’t find unquestioning acceptance here. > [@](#): > > \*\* When you insult someone you better have a good reason for it, but skeptics don’t have any at all. No proof, evidence, no nothing. They are “fighting ignorance” whatever the hell that means when you have no proof of anything. \*\* Skepticism is what eventually led to the general acceptance that the world is not flat. Skepticism is healthy, intelligent, and natural. It is what protects us from accepting every crack-pot theory that comes our way. Praise whatever gods may be for skeptics! Skepticism is the search for truth: where none is found, beware. Again, you made an assertion. The burden is on you, my friend, to provide proof. Not on those who are naturally skeptical of your claims. Look at it this way: we seek elucidation. Provide it. In your words, prove your claim, or shut your mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/72 "2003-03-10T02:43:38Z")
I admit that, in the context of **lekatt’s** beliefs, my dismissal of his NDE experiences as hallucinations may have been insulting. For that, I would like to apologise. I will reiterate however, that in the context of my own beliefs, such experiences are little more than hallucinations. Two reasons: 1.) NDE experiences can be [induced](http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/Using_Ketamine_to_Induce_the_Near-Death_Experience.9260.shtml). > [@](#): > > [http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/si91nde.html](http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/si91nde.html) > \* > Perhaps more important is whether you have to be nearly dead to have an NDE. The answer is clearly no (e.g., Morse et al. 1989). Many very similar experiences are recorded of people who have taken certain drugs, were extremely tired, or, occasionally, were just carrying on their ordinary activities. - 2.) As such, I believe that a more appropriate description of NDE experiences must lie in an analysis of the neural conditions which give rise to them. My own observations and studies have led me to believe that the physiology of the brain is the major determinant of states of consciousness. This is a view which is corraborated by modern neuro-science and does not invoke unnecessary explanations. Explanations based on the effects of a neuro-chemistry near death are going to carry far more weight with me. To put it simply, I don’t believe that you have start invoking God, souls, an afterlife or anything like that to explain NDEs. It seems far more likely that your brain has more to do with these experiences than some touchy-feely interpretation of the visions themselves. That doesn’t make them any less fascinating - _hallucination or not, it sounds like some freaky stuff starts happening when a brain nears death._ And you know that I can’t prove anything about your personal experience **lekatt**. I suspect that is exactly why you are asking me to do it ;). But you must also realize that that isn’t how things work anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/73 "2003-03-10T07:33:27Z")
I decided to do a little more research into the Pam Reynold’s case. The prcedure somewhat inaccurately described previously is called “hypothermic cardiac arrest.” The patient’s body is cooled, and the heartbeat slows dramatically. As [this site](http://www.cryonics.org/surgery.html) puts it: > [@](#): > > At the center of the commotion last Wednesday lay a 24-year-old patient, already rendered unconscious by anesthesia and about to lose even the vestige of brain activity as surgeons prepared to stop his blood flow and cool his brain to a limbo \*\*just short of death. \*\* \ The lines on the monitors fell ominously flat. For the next half hour, Donald Rogers was an inanimate object, a patient in limbo, \*\* not measurably alive, but not quite dead either. \ \*\* > > When the body is cooled, it needs much less energy, and the brain can survive longer without oxygen. . . . At a body temperature of 60 degrees, almost 40 degrees below normal, the brain can survive an hour before damage. \ > > It [the procedure] is at best a risky move, reserved only “for the direst of cases,” said Dr. Young. Less than half a dozen hospitals use the technique, known as hypothermic arrest, for brain surgery. \ Mr. Rogers is the 10th patient to have the surgery at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center. Of the first nine, all are alive and leading independent lives, except for one who is in rehabilitation after suffering a stroke during surgery. (Bolding mine) So, it appears that Ms. Reynolds was not as “dead” as it was implied. I have found in my research that true brain death is considered irreversible by every major medical association. Let’s examine one [case](http://www.cincinnatiskeptics.org/blurbs/nde-case.html) of a supposed NDE from a skeptical viewpoint. It supports what I think could have happened in the Pam Reynolds case. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410/74 "2003-03-10T08:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Here you will find the information, including the doctor, He appeared on the TV special and told about how amazed he was to hear Pam tell about the surgery.** We’ve been over this before, first [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=109225), and more recently [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=131095). In all of those pages, in both of those threads, you have yet to even offer proof that the doctor in question has ever remotely acknowledged anything about the Pam Reynolds case, other than to acknowledge that he performed the surgery. No cites to his “amazement” to be found. You also eventually leave the threads once those who show an interest in NDEs start to realize that you don’t have any evidence whatsoever to backup your claims, other than anecdotal. If you really want to revisit this, both threads are waiting for you, including one in which I challenged you to provide the evidence about the surgeon in question, which you never responded to. 30 years from now, you’ll probably still be posting that the doctor was “amazed” at Pam’s account of the surgery. Hopefully, there is life after death, so that I’ll still be here to once again ask for a cite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-we-know-what-happen-after-we-died/159410.md?page=3)