How do we resolve elections that fall within the margin of error?

Disclaimer: I voted for Rossi.

Note on the final hand recount:
Each counter was supervised by 1 Democrat and 1 Republican, either of which could raise a challenge to the count of any specific ballot.

Knowing that the machines do indeed have an error rate>0, and given the nature of the hand recount, I don’t see any problem with the final count.
http://www.campaignaudit.org/articles/anotherflorida.html
“According to a 2001 study of voting error rate conducted by Caltech/MIT, manually counted paper ballots had the lowest observed error rate when counted, followed closely by lever machines; electronically read machines had a “significantly higher average rate” of error when counted, approximately 1.5 percent difference in reliability than manually counted paper ballots (Caltech/MIT Voting Project 2001).”
P.S. The issue of whether an individual legally should have voted or not is very different from the issue of accurate counting. The court case involves some people that should not have voted, this needs to be resolved with new procedures. The current procedures were agreed upon by both parties at the last review which I think was around 2000.

I wish this were the case. The Seattle Times came out with a study yesterday that shows that even if the felon votes are thrown out, Rossi still loses. I watched the TV news last night, where they ask the Republicans for a response. The response was “The felon votes are only part of our case” :rolleyes:

I like the rest of your post, BTW :smiley:

People and machines do always make mistakes, but in recent years, a lot of industries have successfully put a lot of effort into designing in quality so errors are far rarer than they used to be.

It helps if you have a simple, verifiable, self-correcting process.

Take this voting-machine design, for instance. Mechanically, it’s got two components: ballot preparation, and voting. In between, it’s got a eview step.

Preparation: you take your access card from the poll worker, and go to a computer terminal of the kind that is currently used in many states for electronic voting. You look at the names of the candidates in each race you’re voting in, and you indicate your choices. Once you’ve done that, it prints out a physical ballot on barcoded card stock, showing each race, and the name of the candidate you’re voting for.

Review: you look over your ballot and see that it’s got all the names right. If not - “Hey, I’m not voting for Buchanan!” - or if it just didn’t print the names very clearly, you take it to one of the voting officials, who writes a big X in magic marker on that ballot, initials it, and puts it in a secure box. He gives you a new access card to go back to the computer terminal and prepare a new ballot.

Voting: Having reviewed your ballot and found it satisfactory, you feed your ballot into a machine that reads and tallies your ballot via OCR technology, and drops it into a secure reservoir along with all the other cast ballots. In addition to keeping running tallies, it would indicate which barcode had which votes, so samples of ballots could be compared with the computer records of those ballots to test for shenanigans.

OCR technology is pretty damned good nowadays, if it’s reading printed materials off standard paper in standard fonts. It shouldn’t be rocket science to control the precision on this so that mistaking one candidate’s name for another is a one-in-a-million occurence. And since the quite readable physical ballot is available for recounts, hand recounts would be do-able in an exceedingly close race.

Heck, we’re approaching the point where PDFs of each ballot could be recorded and put online, grouped by precinct, for independent verification by anybody who had the time and energy. Everybody could do their own ‘hand-count’ online.

For these reasons, I contend that stuff like this is amenable to technological solutions. It’s just a matter of the politics.

(Which reminds me: MD Gov. Ehrlich just vetoed a bill that would have authorized a study of how to make Maryland computerized ballots verifiable. Like I said, it’s the politics.)

I know; I addressed that later in the post.

It seems to me you would still have issues. For example, if you said any election witihin 0.25% should be run-off or something, you would still get complaints if the election was decided by 0.251% and people contesting the results.

And the ‘gold standard’ in industry these days is six sigma accuracy, which breaks down to 237 errors per million. The Washington and Florida results would have both fallen within this range, meaning they are indeterminate within a six sigma confidence interval.

Js_Africanus is right - you can’t get a perfect count. And it’s not just the count that’s the problem - if the goal is finding out the express wishes of the public, you have to consider things like unequal closure times of voting precincts, traffic jams that prevent some people from voting, machine breakdowns, fraud, etc. But even just limiting the error to the count, I think it’s ridiculous to believe that you can collect, transport, and tabulate millions of votes within hours and not make *any errors.

It seems to me the sane thing to do is make the procedure for statistical ‘ties’ more robust. For example, you could have a system wherein there is an automatic run-off election any time the difference between candidates falls within a certain range. That might be the fairest.

Six Sigma, in as much as it’s a “gold standard”, refers to controlling process parameters in a manufacturing line. I don’t think that’s applicable to the simple act of counting. We should be able to do better than that.

But the fact is, every counting method does produces errors. The folks using the machines (ie, the election boards) need to measure the error and determine appropriate solutions when the count difference is less than the expected error of the counting method(s). In the end, though, the courts just might be the best venue for resolution. It’s not perfect, but I don’t know if there’s a better solution.

Counting IS an assembly line. Machines have tolerances. Cards get ripped. Bits of chad might block a sensor.

Can we design the counting part to better than six sigma accuracy? No doubt. But not to perfection.

I would tend to look at the election ‘system’, and not arbitrarily single out just the counting of votes aspect. The problem is more like this: “There is a will of the people to be determined. How well does our system determine the will of the people?”

Looked at in that fashion, all kinds of other variables come into play. An ‘indeterminate’ election is not just one in which the entire election system fails to resolve the correct answer. You need to factor in things like voter registration errors, inaccurate poll closing times, etc.

It seems to me that the only fair way to resolve these things is to have some sort of procedure in place before the election… say, for example, that there will be a machine recount, and then, if it’s still too close to call, a hand recount. Note that, if the results still fall inside the expected counting error, a hand count is essentially a game of chance, so long as the counting procedure isn’t weighted toward one side or the other. I think some sort of run-off might be a better solution, but with no guarantee that the result will be any different, I don’t see any problem with a recounting procedure being it.

Of course, individuals should still be allowed to bring court cases, and each case should be judged on its merits. As someone said before, that’s one of the things we have to live with in our particular form of democracy, what with the three branches and all (yeah yeah yeah, that’s only defined nationwide for the federal government, but it works pretty well that way and is often setup that way on smaller scales as well).

I think it is interesting that the 2000 election created neither unrest nor rioting, as far as I am aware. Sure, hurt feelings and propaganda and such came out of it; however, the whole affair really showed the strength of the American political system in that something as contentious as a presidential election was ultimately respected even though many thought the steps leading to the declaration of the winner were questionable.

I also think it is interesting that no one ever points that out.

Isn’t the point of a measure of “margin of error” to account for non-random sampling? We don’t assume people cast or count votes randomly, but we do assume ideally that there is no selection bias (beyond legal parameter) that would unfairly skew a vote outcome (either in the casting or counting). Wouldn’t the extent to which the voting process can be assumed to deviate from that ideal (whatever the source of the discrepancy may be) be the measure of “margin of error”?

I always figured that the MoE theory breaks down in an election scenerio because you’re polling sample size is on the order of the size of the entire population. MoE is ideally applied to prevent us from making spurious conclusions about a poll of a sample that is significantly smaller than the entire population. IOW, it’s to winnow out results that don’t beat the potential skew arising from inadvertantly taking an inappropirate sample. It’s to get around being not-quite-random-enough on sampling from the population. MoE does not, if IIRC, depend on the population size in any way, only the sample size, so there’s no hard rule that I’m aware of to tell us when we shouldn’t bother with it. However, if your sample is something like half the population, then it’s probably safe to not bother with MoE. Instead, you have to do the far more diffucult and messy job if figuring out why, if you’re sampling half the population, you still have selection errors, instead of doing some statistical hand-waving that makes us feel good with any outcome. These are not “theoretical” selection biases we’re dealing with now, the sorts of problems oppinion pollsters need to worry about. These are specific and perhaps quite concrete selection biases that should not be swept under the rug of “Margin of Error”. If you’re sampling close to the whole population, and you’re counting the ballots fairly, there should be NO margin of error.

MOE is for generalizing samples to a population. But votes in elections ARE the population: at least, the population of people who actually bother to cast votes, which is what counts under current law. So statistics doesn’t matter here.

The error of actual elections is found in votes getting lost, wrong votes getting cast, fraud, and perhaps even, if you want to count it, voter intimidation and other activities meant to hurt turnout.

Given all that, and given that these sorts of errors add up to more than a hundred votes in most statewide elections, statistical sampling might actually have a lot LESS error than direct voting: i.e. the margin of error from using a sample (plus error in conducting the survey) would be far far lower than the miscounts caused by holding an election. Unfortunately or fortunately, it would also remove the greatest bias of all that our current system, for better or worse, accepts: that not everyone votes, and that they do so in ways grossly disproprotionate to the general makeup of the population on virtually any factor (wealth, race, gender, etc.)

The best alternative for close races, a re-run, is by far the most expensive, and such pretty much implausible. I don’t see many good options other than the “most votes wins, even if that doesn’t necessarily express the exact will of the people who happened to vote that day.” The worst you can say about it is that when elections are that close, the selection of the winning candidate is likely somewhat random rather than biased to one party or the other. But then, maybe it IS biased.

I’m not following you. I’m thinking more like an engineer here - I have a process, it has a number of errors associated with it - counting errors, sampling bias (i.e. it’s easier to get to the polls if you own a Rolls in Bel-Air than if you’re hoofing it in Compton), collection errors (lost ballots, spoiled ballots by accident, inaccurate poll closing times, improper allocation of voting machines causing long lines in some areas, etc), and the list goes on.

Continuing to think as an engineer, I’d start by doing a failure mode effects analysis, to try to quantify all the sources of error. I’d break them down into categories, and try to determine the overall accuracy of the system within some limits. If my process is ‘in control’, the results will fall inside those limits 95% of the time. Now I can make a statement like, “The vote result is accurate within a range of +=3000 votes per million”, or whatever number seems reasonable. There are political decisions to be made over what constitutes ‘error’. The fact that people in Compton can’t travel as well as the people Bel-Air may or may not be error - motor-voter laws are based on the assumption that this is error. Other people differ. Regardless, we need to have some hard limits on what we decide is within the scope of a ‘fair’ election.

But once we have this approximation, now we can start making some intelligent decisions about what constitutes an election that has reasonably determined the will of the people. If the election falls within those limits, it’s unknowable.

And I have to add that hand recounts make the problem worse, because machine errors are ‘common mode’ errors that are as likely to affect one side as the other. As such, you can tolerate some fairly high failure rates before you have to assume that the result is invalid. But throwing a completely different count system into the mix, complete with all the biases, fatigue-related errors and other problems of human judgement just clouds the issue. All you have to do is look at the results of the Florida recounts to see that. They were all over the map. Some precincts discovered huge numbers of missing votes for one side, and others didn’t. They all found so many ‘discrepancies’ that had the hand-recount been done across the state the result would have changed by many thousands of votes. You can’t fix the accuracy of a system by adding in another process that is even less accurate.

Personally, I think someone should put some science behind this. How about a week before an election, the system is tested with cards of known configuration? Create a ‘test deck’ of 2 million randomly punched cards, and run them through all the machines. Compare the output with the known input. That’s your baseline - the system can be no more accurate than that. If there’s consistently a variance of 300 votes per million, then you can start by saying that any time there is a difference of 300 votes or less per million between candidates, a run-off election is mandated. Forget the hand recounts - if the machines aren’t as accurate as people peering at holes in cards, you’re an idiot for using the machines in the first place.

From the 300 vote baseline, you can start adding in the next more common sources of error, if you choose. You could start by analyzing past elections and tabulating things like the frequency of lost ballots, how often punch cards are destroyed by accident, etc.

The notion that the will of the people can be determined perfectly as long as we’re really clever and try really hard is just not correct.

Pardon me, but what sigma are you using, where’s it from, and what’s it the standard deviation of?

Thinking statistically, it just makes no sense to apply the MoE standard to the entire population. You use it for analyzing subsets of the population, largely for the simple reason that you cannot (feasibly) evaluate any and all sources of sampling error. Like all forms of statistical analysis (and MoE is a fairly weak one, at that), the whole point is to follow rules based upon tested theories that help the investigator determine “significance”. Even without rising above statistical noise, whatever signal is there can indicate a “trend”, which might warrant further analysis. That’s why folks often report numbers that do not attain the standards of statistical significance; because statistical significance is, well, statistical significance. It’s a universally agreed-upon standard of excellence that happens to have a lot of theory, simulation, and observation to back up its utility. It’s not “truth” or anything like it. It’s a way to help keep us from wasting our time on false leads, a tool for analytical efficiency.

So, if the theory tells you “this test helps avoid making spurious conclusions by giving you a guideline for how to assess what difference is required to rise above expected sampling error when evaluating a small subset of a population”, you simply cannot apply that test to the entire population, or some very large fraction thereof. It simply makes no sense. The fact that you know there’s sampling error, but cannot identify it specifically, is irrelevant. This sort of stuff comes up in stats all the time. Many tests provide increasing levels of significance so long as you keep driving the n value up, but eventually the “significant” verdict becomes completely meaningless. Of course virtually any difference between two values will converge on “significant” if the n can approach infinity, but those differences also approach worthless from an analytical standpoint. There are realms, if you will, in which it makes sense to use certain tests, and realms in which it makes no sense at all. This is especially true when the formulation of the test is relatively unsophisticated and insensitive to the ratio between sample size and population size.

When it comes to elections (vs. polls), like I said, you can’t use statistics to sweep the sampling errors under the rug of “theory”. You have to deal with the grungy details directly, and evaluate them individually. Either that, or there are far more sophisticated methods of statistical analysis that can be brought to bear on the problem. I’m not a statistician, so I don’t know what such a test might be. The fact nobody seems to be using one suggests it either doesn’t exist, or is so esoteric as to be conceptually useless to the general population, for all practical purposes.

Other posters have done a better job of explaining this, but there is no margin of error in an election. It’s a count and you add up the totals. If there’s any problems what you’re dealing with is a miscount not a margin of error.

If a law in Congress was passed by a vote of 218 to 217, it would be a close vote but you couldn’t claim that it fell within the margin of error and the outcome was subject to dispute.

That’s for wimps! THUNDERDOME! Two pols enter . . .

Loopydude, Little Nemo - I think you guys are talking about different things than Sam (for instance) is talking about.

In an election, there’s no MOE on the voters who go to the polls, and their candidate preferences: if their choices could be recorded 100% accurately, that would be the population, and MOE would equal zero.

But then there’s other errors. As the boilerplate language from Census Bureau source and accuracy statements goes, “For a given estimator, the difference between the estimate that would result if the sample were to include the entire population and the true population value being estimated is known as nonsampling error.” (Cite: bottom of p. 319 on this big-ass PDF.) It then goes on to list several such sources of nonsampling error that are relevant here, such as:

· Definitional difficulties
· Differences in the interpretation of questions
· Respondent inability to provide correct information
· Errors made in data collection such as recording and coding data
· Errors made in processing the data

The first couple of bullets might only apply to referenda, but the last two would apply universally, and that’s what Sam was mostly focusing on. And by taking a test deck of known ballots, as he suggested, you can turn the last two bullets from a nonsampling error situation (in terms of sampling the voters) to a sampling situation (in terms of measuring error rates in one’s ballot-reading and tabulating processes).

And as we recall from 2000, ballots can get confusing. The third bullet point above, if we rewrote that as “respondent difficulty in providing correct information,” would describe the situations in Palm Beach County, where voters had problems correctly recording their preferences due to the infamous “butterfly ballot,” and in Duval County, where the instructions told voters to vote on every page, even though the Presidential ballot went on for two pages - resulting in numerous disqualified ballots when voters recorded their preference for a major presidential candidate on the first page, then checked a minor candidate on the second page.

A great deal of statistical analysis was done with the butterfly-ballot results, of course, and it’s old news that the butterfly ballot decided the 2000 election and the subsequent course of our country. (That’s why the chaos theorists talk about the “butterfly ballot effect,” don’t’cha know? ;))

Much of this is testable. Ballot designs can and should be tested on groups of people to see how they perceive them, before putting them into practice, to find out what the error rates are between people’s intended and actual selections. These rates can be measured, and once measured, they can be minimized. (Systems that provide a means of self-checking, as my hypothetical system above does, are one technique to minimize that kind of error.)

Similarly (and much more easily) machine error in reading and processing ballots can be measured, via test decks as Sam proposes. The accuracy of OCR technology in different environments, for instance, has been measured in considerable detail.

So the expected number of these kinds of nonsampling errors can be sampled and measured in advance, and like Sam suggests, those measurements could be used to define what constitutes a ‘virtual tie’ in an election with a given number of voters. I’d quibble with Sam in just one place:

My system would have the ballot prep computer print out the voter’s selections for each race in, say, eighteen-point Courier bold, all caps, that pretty much anyone with eyesight could clearly read. (If the printer screws up, hopefully the voter will ask for a new ballot.) As long as the printer has enough ink, the result should be a ballot such that the OCR reader rarely misreads a character, with a misreading of ‘BUSH’ as ‘GORE’ being almost infinitely improbable. So maybe we agree after all about the machines being better, but disagree on the likelihood of vote-changing machine error in a system such as this.

So what you’re saying, I think, is: Apply MoE correctly to a sample to extrapolate error when polling the population. The thing I don’t understand now (if I understood your original argument correctly) is why the expected error for an election thus isn’t an ad hoc standard for that particular election system, rather than a generalized test like the MoE, which seeks not to have identified knowable sources of error so much as to acknowledge that they’re “out there”, and that small samples are prone to selection bias due to a variety of (though perhaps not limited to, I don’t know) stochastic factors.

No, we’re talking two different kinds of populations.

An election is a census of the population of voters. If the election accurately records each voter’s choice, it has zero MOE.

But the election may fail to do that, due to problems with ballots, equipment, and the like. This is a whole different question than who the voters favor.

To get into that, we sample other kinds of populations. We can sample the general population to find the error rate on ballot readability and intelligibility. And for whatever sort of ballot we have, we can feed the machines a test deck of those ballots to find the error rate in turning those ballots into counted votes. There, we’re sampling the potentially infinite universe of different runs of input through a mechanical and/or electronic process.

I think it’s basically an accident of history. Technology advanced very rapidly in the past quarter-century, which was also the era of growing anti-tax sentiment. So since nobody was demanding that governments spend money analyzing and improving the quality of their voting processes, it wasn’t happening; they didn’t have enough money to spend on the things that they felt they really needed to spend money on.

That all ended with Florida in 2000, of course, but the pols (who get to make the decisions) don’t seem to have a clue yet of what needs to be done, or how to find that out.