# How do white American students compare with foreign students on standardized tests? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 4, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423 "2006-09-04T18:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/1 "2006-09-04T18:23:00Z")
I’m not looking for a debate here - please nothing implied about teachers unions, racism, philosophy of education, etc. Maybe in a follow-up post we can go over to GD and try to sort out why these things happen. My wife and I were listening to John Stoessel on the radio and he said that students in Belgium do better than American students by eighth grade. That got us to thinking about what exactly was being measured here. There are plenty of stats showing that Latino and black students do not do as well, on average, as white students in the US. So if you lump all these students together it leaves some questions unanswered. Or another way or putting it might be: How does the typical suburban all white school do compared to a foreign school? ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/2 "2006-09-04T18:41:32Z")
Well, if you want an anectdote I took the SATs at age 14 in 1994and got 1390 (with 800 in the verbal) and I was in the top 10% of my school (admittedly, a selective girl’s grammar school), but by no means anywhere near the best performer in exams. While American third level education is the envy of many European countries, American secondary and primary education…isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/3 "2006-09-04T18:59:44Z")
I thought the PISA tests, since they are administered by the UN/UNICEF, are standardized across all nations, so they test the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/4 "2006-09-04T19:30:13Z")
This doesn’t answer the OP, but it’s an interesting commentary on the Stossel piece: [http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/tclim/weblog/stossel.htm](http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/tclim/weblog/stossel.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/5 "2006-09-04T19:56:32Z")
[QUOTE=irishgirl] Well, if you want an anectdote I took the SATs at age 14 in 1994and got 1390 (with 800 in the verbal) and I was in the top 10% of my school (admittedly, a selective girl’s grammar school), but by no means anywhere near the best performer in exams. While American third level education is the envy of many European countries, American secondary and primary education…isn’t. [/QUOTE] How about this anecdote? One of my friends was an average student in Hong Kong and moved to the US when he was about 13. He’s been #1 in his class ever since. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/6 "2006-09-04T19:58:11Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] This doesn’t answer the OP, but it’s an interesting commentary on the Stossel piece: > **[Faculty Web Directory | Cal State LA](https://www.calstatela.edu/facultydirectory)** [/QUOTE] Please, please, puh-leeze don’t get this moved to GD. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Anvil\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/cab0a1/32.png) [@Anvil\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anvil_Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/7 "2006-09-05T02:29:29Z")
Not a full answer, but for a start, PISA results are [here](http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2005003). A cursory glance through the charts in the [Highlights section](http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISA2003Highlights.asp) shows, for Mathematical Literacy: [ul] [li]550: Finland (#1 in OECD)[/li][li]500: OECD Average[/li][li]486: US (24th)[/li][/ul] And then: [ul] [li]512: US Whites (would be 13th if ranked among OECD countries)[/li][li]417: US Blacks (would be 2nd to last if ranked)[/li][/ul] I’m sure you could get more detail on this by reading through the full report. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/8 "2006-09-05T03:14:08Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Or another way or putting it might be: How does the typical suburban all white school do compared to a foreign school? [/QUOTE] What makes you think that there is such a thing as a “typical” all white school even in the suburbs? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/9 "2006-09-05T15:33:42Z")
Do American kids and European kids take the same standardized test so that a valid comparison may be made? Or do the countries involved each have their own “standardized” test, but the tests themselves cannot be objectively compared? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/10 "2006-09-05T15:47:33Z")
[QUOTE=Duckster] Do American kids and European kids take the same standardized test so that a valid comparison may be made? Or do the countries involved each have their own “standardized” test, but the tests themselves cannot be objectively compared? [/QUOTE] For PISA, all participating countries take the same test: > [@](#): > > The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is an internationally standardised assessment that was jointly developed by participating countries and administered to15-year-olds in schools. ([Read about the OECD here](http://www.pisa.oecd.org)) ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/11 "2006-09-06T01:27:55Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] What makes you think that there is such a thing as a “typical” all white school even in the suburbs? [/QUOTE] Uhm…I’ve been in them. As a general rule, go to the richest suburb near any city and you’ll find at least one of them. Maybe “all white” is an exaggeration…let’s say 95%+ white and middle class or wealthy Asian. Here’s one: [http://www.ccsd.ws/hg/HGweb/gweb5/home.php#](http://www.ccsd.ws/hg/HGweb/gweb5/home.php#) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/12 "2006-09-06T04:36:36Z")
You find a “typical” school by going to the “richest” suburb? Do you mean “atypical”? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/13 "2006-09-06T18:25:00Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] You find a “typical” school by going to the “richest” suburb? Do you mean “atypical”? [/QUOTE] If you take the set of all mostly white schools in the country, most of them will typically be in the suburbs. I don’t understand your question. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/14 "2006-09-06T23:51:03Z")
What about “richest”? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/15 "2006-09-07T02:38:09Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] What about “richest”? [/QUOTE] The point being there are no mostly white schools that are not in the richest suburbs, so the typical mostly white school will be in the richest suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/16 "2006-09-07T04:08:36Z")
Phrasing the question in racial terms was a big mistake, **Plan B**. Yes, the poor inner-city schools that do an abysmally bad job of educating their students are mostly black, but crouching the issue in racial language is just begging for a debate. I think that a better version of the question would go something like this: How would your typical suburban American student, who does not attend a poor inner-city school, and has received a decent education (by American standards) compare to those foreign students that we hear so much about? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/17 "2006-09-07T13:09:38Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > How would your typical suburban American student, who does not attend a poor inner-city school, and has received a decent education (by American standards) compare to those foreign students that we hear so much about? In other words, how does a selected elite (not necessarily a small elite, however) of American students compare to the average students in other OECD countries? I think **Anvil Soup** ’s cite is the closest thing you’ll get to a quantitative answer on this; the answer seems to be, “Better than average American students, but still not remarkably well”. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/18 "2006-09-07T16:09:34Z")
I am skeptical about such comparisons. for example, comparing the USA average to Finland. Finland is a country of a few million people-its school population is probably less than that of the City of detroit. yes, there are BIG differences between school districts in america. probably a wealthy suburb would compare well to Finland, while a poor, inner city disytrict would not. A question i have: many european countries track students early-in some countires, only a minority of students persue a college-track carriculum. most of the students attend a vocational track. How does this skew the statistics? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-white-american-students-compare-with-foreign-students-on-standardized-tests/371423/19 "2006-09-07T16:51:35Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I am skeptical about such comparisons. for example, comparing the USA average to Finland. Finland is a country of a few million people-its school population is probably less than that of the City of detroit. yes, there are BIG differences between school districts in america. probably a wealthy suburb would compare well to Finland, while a poor, inner city disytrict would not. So why does that make you “skeptical” about such comparisons? The comparison simply indicates that the average Finnish student scores better than the average US one, which you don’t seem to be disagreeing with. What is it that you’re skeptical about? > [@ralph124c](#): > > A question i have: many european countries track students early-in some countires, only a minority of students persue a college-track carriculum. most of the students attend a vocational track. How does this skew the statistics? For the abovementioned [PISA assessment](http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/AboutPisa.asp?Quest=3), which AFAICT provides the only actual numbers considered so far in this comparison, tracking is irrelevant: > [@](#): > > PISA assesses the cumulative educational experiences of all students who are 15 years of age at the time of assessment, irrespective of the grade levels or type of institutions in which they are enrolled. Since all 15-year-old students are assessed, the statistics are not skewed by cross-national differences in tracking.