# How do you act black? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2001, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415 "2001-10-04T18:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/21 "2001-10-04T23:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by tracer \* > Well, according to the Year 2000 U.S. Census forms, you’re **not** a mixed-race couple._\* I really had never considered it one way or the other, nor had I noticed the missing census box. (He was stationed overseas when the census was taken.) That’s why it came as a shock to me to have someone insult SeaHubby. I’m not at all trying to say that my one incident is in any way equivalent to lifelong racism that others have been through. But being expected to act “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_” and the oft-implied insult that underlies that? It makes no damn sense to me, whether the incident be large or small. ---
**Author:** ![saudade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@saudade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saudade)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/22 "2001-10-05T00:13:14Z")
“Hispanic” is no more a “race” than “American”…but once again a lot of what we think about race is in our perceptions. Anybody who has lived in Mexico, or travelled to different areas there knows that there are Mexicans that are white (esp. in Guadalajara), black (esp. in Veracruz), or very Indian (all over)…but in the Southwest, for the last 150 years, Mexicans have been \*\* treated\*\* as a racial group, seperate from whites, blacks, or even Indians. Technically I am a “Latino” even though I am pretty much all white, with maybe an Arab ancestor from 15 generations back. I am half Portuguese from my mom, a fourth German, a fourth Italian from my Brazilian dad…I just say I’m “Brazilian-Portuguese”, instead of Latino or anything else. We look white (I’m usually asked if I am Italian), but we can’t fit into the “Anglo” category well, as we have “axé” records, eat bean and rice dishes every 2 days, and get the cops called on us when we argue…and I have a cousin who was arrested in New Jersey for using a chickens for spriritual enlightenment instead of frying 'em up like a Good American. Are we for real or just acting? Quem sabe… ---
**Author:** ![shelbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@shelbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shelbo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/23 "2001-10-05T00:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Milossarian \* > There is an unfortunate segment of the black population that views speaking proper English and getting an education as “acting white.”_ > > I certainly hope _that_ is being eradicated. Shelby Steele, John McWhorter and others have written a great deal about the problems that have arisen, and are continuing, in various black communities because of the fact that scholarly achievement is viewed as a “white” endeavor. They have been roundly criticized in many quarters for their statements, but I think that they at least have a good argument. As to whether “acting white” or “acting black” really means anything (other than as a fancy way of saying other not so nice words), I agree with the OP. Words are powerful, and the way you use them affects the way you perceive the world. Stereotypes are the lazy way out. I think that part of the problem people have is that it takes a real effort to see stereotypes for what they are. It involves first questioning, and then changing, the way you perceive the world, and that is hard to do. Once you’ve done it, it’s hard to remember that you once perceived the world in a different way. Like the hidden face in a picture, it is hard, initially, to see it. But, once you’ve seen it, you can’t un-see it. This leads to vehement, sometimes angry discussions, because each person so strongly believes their own postion (there is no face there! yes, there is, it’s plain to see!). Biggirl’s seen the face in the picture, she knows it’s there, she wants us to see it too. It’s destructive to view the world through stereotypes, and, though it’s hard, it’s possible to do without them. ---
**Author:** ![Ooner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c67d28/32.png) [@Ooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ooner)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/24 "2001-10-05T01:50:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*_There is an unfortunate segment of the black population that views speaking proper English and getting an education as “acting white.”_ > > I certainly hope _that_ is being eradicated. > > \*\* Milo, that’s always been something that really bothered me too. I can’t remember any exact quotes, but Larry Elder (Judge Elder from Moral Court :)) addressed this issue in one of his books. Something like “It’s not acting white, it’s acting smart.” I don’t like to think of cultures or behaviors as solidly tied to race. The idea above of saying acting “urban” seems a little better, but it’s still too broad. Maybe we just need a new word for that specific set of behaviors that doesn’t reference race. “Ghetto” and “country” seem to be pretty popular terms around here, but I’m sure that some people in those respective places would be offended to hear that. So, does the word I’m looking for exist? ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/25 "2001-10-05T07:32:09Z")
Let me echo stuffinb and thank Biggirl for starting this thread. I must confess that in the other thread SO MUCH was going on I was just getting really confused about what was going on. [sigh] To answer the OP, one doesn’t act white or black; one acts human. Ooner, you ask if the word you’re looking for to describe cultural/class trends/stereotypes perpetuated by the mass media exists? I would have to say NO. I wonder if we really need one. All stereotypes do is limit folks. Yet they are comfortable because they create for the user an easy way to cram folks into nice neat little packages. The problem is that individuals don’t conform well to artificial constructs of behavior that are imposed on them. Yes, some buy into the artificial constructs, and that is a problem because it indicates either a non-critical acceptance of what mass media feeds us that I find frankly frightening, or a fear of accepting, celebrating, and exploring one’s individuality. Some folks use the stereotypes to make money. For example, the commodification of gangsta culture is big business now, but they are selling nothing much that has to do with blackness or whiteness, and I really wonder just how much the gangsta rapper image reflects the reality of gangsta life. The problem with this “acting white/black” business is that it is indicative of the larger problem of cultural identity in America, a country comprised of multiple cultures that really don’t interact with each other in any kind of meaningful way nearly as much as they should, YET dichotomizes itself along artificial lines of black and white that to some extent denote the class of whites vs. the class of blacks, or seen another way rich vs. poor. At the heart of the acting black/white business is American uneasiness over the fact that we cannot really define what American culture is. To do that we have to examine some hard truths about the historical oppression and subjugation of one group of folks by another group of folks, for built into the fabric of that history is the prejudice that one group of folks who fit a certain physical appearance is better than another, and the manifestation of this prejudice that resulted in the racist practices of segregation. It’s not logical, yet that is how Americans have structured their identities. And this is sadly ironic considering that America has some noble goals for tolerance, freedom, and plurality. The Constitution is one of the most brilliant documents of governance ever written, but we have not really lived up to it, and we won’t until we resolve our differences of how we perceive each other. Folks need to get away from the comforting yet unrealistic notions of conformity that stereotypes offer and really look to see folks as the individual human beings that they are. The best way to do that is for folks from one cultural group to get out there, meet, and interact with folks from other cultural groups ON THE OTHER CULTURAL GROUP’S OWN TURF, OR ON NEUTRAL TURF. If you want to get rid of stereotypes, get to know people as human beings, and promote more communications among different cultural groups, then have multicultural neighborhoods. Revise the school curriculum so that it is multicultural on all levels and in all subjects to teach children how the different cultures/nationalities of the world contribute to the body of knowledge we have now. If you’re in college or out on your own, live with someone from a different culture than your own, or do study abroad. We need to stop isolating ourselves and feeding that isolation with stereotypes and challenge ourselves to find our similarities and celebrate our differences. If we do this, we won’t be as likely to get ignorant generalizations of what it’s like to act black, white, yellow, or red. We may actually get productive inquiry into the fascinating and complex socio-cultural dynamics of human interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Smitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/26 "2001-10-05T13:06:11Z")
Something told me not to get involved in this one… I didn’t mean to imply that the phrases were accurate, or that they weren’t based on stereotypical ideas. They obviously are. But to say that the phrase is meaningless is simply not true. If I say the word “tree”, do you get a general idea of what I mean? I may be picturing a pine, while you may be thinking of an oak, but it’s not like you have no idea what I mean. Your idea of a generic tree can’t possibly encompass every possible tree that exists, and in fact may not correspond to any particular tree. Does that mean that the phrase “I saw a tree” is meaningless? No. It conveys a valid, if not precise, idea. I’m sorry if it offends your personal beliefs, but it is my experience that there is a general belief by both black and white people that there are differences in generic black and white cultures. Ever watch Def Comedy Jam? The vast majority of comedians base at least part of their routine on some variation of “Ain’t it funny the way white people do activity X this way, while black people do it this way?” If you want to argue that this perception is a bad thing, OK. That wasn’t the point I was making. I was merely saying that the language used to make this point is not meaningless, in that it conveys a mutually understandable, if not laser-precise idea. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/27 "2001-10-05T14:10:56Z")
I think that people here are just talking past each other. I understand the offense that some have with the phrase “acting B/W”. I also understand why other folks are saying that denying that such a thing exists is denying the obvious. Maybe we could agree to use a different terminology. How about this instead: acting white = acting mainstream or conventional acting black = acting non-mainstream or unconventional Of course what is mainstream or conventional would depend on the geographical area being described. Nation wide vs. rural, rural vs. urban, Park avenue vs. South L.A. and so forth. Or maybe this would be better: acting white = acting anal acting black = not acting anal 🙂 I know a professional black man who often acts pretty “mainstream”. But at an earlier point in his life, he lived in (his words) the most dangerous part of L.A. and was a very, very bad person. Now, sometimes (often after drinking), I would say that he acts non-mainstream. I think this is what people mean by “acting W/B”. For those that think that characterization is racist, is my proposed terminology better? If not, what would you propose? Just as some people are “nice” when sober and “jerks” when drunk, I think people are just trying to use “something” to label different behaviors. Or is it just rude to even notice that this one individual exhibits significantly behaviors at different times? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/28 "2001-10-05T14:21:16Z")
Ya know, I, like most folks, ‘act differently’ depending on the circumstances. When I’m at a business conference, I can pretty much guarentee I’ll be wearing a bra, pro’lly won’t say ‘fuck’ etc. when I’m with my elderly conservative father, I don’t talk about sex or politics. When I’m with my 17 year old, he doesn’t want to hear about my sex life either. When I’m with my contemporaries in a social setting, the bra’s off, I swear and talk about sex and anything else on my mind. There’s no doubt in my mind that folks will act differently in different circumstances. What I object to, is calling one ‘acting white’ and another ‘acting black’. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/29 "2001-10-05T14:23:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Smitty \* > **I’m sorry if it offends your personal beliefs, but it is my experience that there is a general belief by both black and white people that there are differences in generic black and white cultures.** Of course such beliefs exists – who can deny it? **Smitty** is giving you all a snapshot of reality. He’s not talking about the way things SHOULD be or the way he WISHES things were. He’s talking about the real world that you and I step into every day. I, for one, do not find a hint of implicit value judgement one way or the other in **Smitty’s** naked observations. I believe it is well possible to NOTICE such things as racist beliefs without internalizing them. **Celestina** , I applaud your “broaden one’s horizons” suggestion. You have the right idea about this. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/30 "2001-10-05T14:38:41Z")
I personally think that all the questions of this thread can be definitively resolved by watching **Blazing Saddles.** ---
**Author:** ![vivian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3e96dc/32.png) [@vivian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivian)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/31 "2001-10-05T15:36:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Smitty \* > \*\*There is a saying that goes, “Don’t be so open minded that your brain falls out.” > > I have questioned several dozen people, both black and white, and EVERY SINGLE ONE knew what the phrase “acting white/black” means. An “according to Webster” definition may be difficult, but you can’t say that the phrase is meaningless. > > You want to say that racism and unfair stereotypes are a bad thing? Fine. I don’t hear anybody disagreeing with you. You want to demonstrate the depth of your liberal sensibilities? Good for you. But don’t act like you don’t know what is meant by this phrase. It is disingenous at best. \*\* i agree with you 100%. i’m afraid to say anything else because it would be deemed racist… ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/32 "2001-10-05T15:37:54Z")
Since we’ve been directed over here from the thread in IMHO, I’m going to copy and paste a couple of the posts from there, since replying to those posts without proper reference would appear out of context. The following was originally posted by **gooti**. Since it’s relatively long, I’ll make these all separate posts, just as they appear in that thread (with permission from **TubaDiva** ). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gooti \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > > > > As I’ve stated _repeatedly_, I do not understand what is meant by “acting black” and “acting white”. > > > > Apart from this, **tlw** , I understand your point, and I agree that the stereotype is not very accurate. There are enough “black-acting” white people and “white-acting” black people in America to make the phrases a bit redundant. I still feel that the remark was innocently made and that one should not characterise all stereotypes as mere figments of the imagination. > > > > You quoted me and addressed **tlw**. You say the stereotype is not accurate but believe they are not figments of the imagination. Stereotypes **are not figments of anyone’s imagination**. Stereotypes are very real. People believe them with a steadfastness that is dismaying and downright scary. No one can even describe what they are, the just know what they are… > > > > …Do I seem to be getting a little angry here? It may be me beating my head against this brick wall. Tell me exactly what stereotypes of black people and white people should we believe? Tell me what in the hell acting white is. Tell me what behaviors that I exhibit that will cause me to give in my membership to the blackness club. > > For the last time \*\*\*WHAT IN FUCK’S SAKE IS ACTING IN COLOR? \*\*\* > > **Biggirl** , > > I’m going to attempt to explain what those of us in concensus mean by “acting black/white”, though I honestly think that you know exactly what this means and are being a bit too idealistic, urealistic, and/or naive (just my opinion, of course). > > I’m trying to be as objective as I can, so I’m using a textbook for the definitions. > > Lets start with defining culture, shall we? According to the sociology book I have before me, culture is: > > “…a system of ideas, values, beliefs, knowledge, norms, customs, and technology shared by almost everyone in a particular society.” > > However, the book goes on to say: > > “_It is rare to find a society that has a single culture shared equally by all it’s members_. This could happen only in small, isolated, non-industrial societies. Most societies who share some of the cultural complexes of the larger society yet also have their own distinctive set of cultural complexes. These units of culture are known as subcultures. Although subcultures exist within the confines of a larger culture they also have their own norms, values, and life styles. _They often reflect **racial or ethnic** differences such as those found in , Polish-, Chinese- or African-Americans_.” > > It also goes on to say that other subcultures develop around other unifying categories such as occupation, religion, geography, etc. > > Now, as I said before, I’m no scientist, but I’d bet my left tit that if you gathered up 100 representatives from each of the subcultures in America, and recorded specific subcultural data about each of them, you would see definite trends within each group represented. No, you won’t get 100% agreement within any of those groups, and no one assumes that you would. But there will be things that distinguish one group from another. The majority in one group might like to wear underwear made out of cotton; the other may prefer yak hair. If you want to call them stereotypes, that’s fine. But not every “stereotype” is bad in and of itself. It’s all about context. > > To me, it would be the same as saying that most (yet not all) African-Americans have dark skin. It’s a fact for the majority of us, yet there are some who don’t. Cultural trends, preferences, “norms”, values, behaviors, etc., can be identified in a similar way. For example, most black people I know (and I know quite a few since I’m black) don’t like hard rock music, and prefer R&B/Rap/Gospel or whatever simply becuse it’s the culture that was passed on to them. There’s nothing wrong with that. Humans are social animals and tend to be influenced by the culture(s) we are familiar and/or comfortable with. > > I think what might have put you off about the “acting white/black” thing is that those terms are racial in connotation and are indeed somewhat prejudicial (plus, race is a whole other kettle of fish as it is a societal and not biological construct). But, I also believe that even **you** in your sweetly feigned ignorance :rolleyes: can acknowledge the existance of the various subcultures mentioned above, plus many more, unless you live in Mongolia where there are 4 people per every 100,000 or so square miles. In which case, I can understand your insistence on homogeny and individualism. > > In the context of the above exposition, can you now understand what is meant by “acting white/black” ? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/33 "2001-10-05T15:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shayna \* > In response to **gooti** : > > I’m not **Biggirl** , but I would still like to reply to your post. > > First of all, make no mistake, there has been **no** consensus here regarding acting black or white. A consensus is an opinion or position reached by a group **as a whole**. If even one person dissents, there is no consensus, and clearly more than one person has dissented here. > > But to the real meat of your position… Your appeal to authority (the use of an as-yet-unnamed sociology text) doesn’t really hold any water for me. First of all, we don’t know if the author of that text is someone who holds opinions more likely to match yours or more likely to match **Biggirl’s**. IOW, what is his/her bias? And do you believe everything you read just because someone managed to get a book or study published? How accurate was their data? Under what conditions did they study their group(s)? What groups were chosen to be studied (if any at all)? And why were others eliminated? On what basis did they divide up their “subcultures”? And so and and so on. > > Now, what I won’t disagree with is that there is such a thing as subcultures that exist within larger cultures of peoples. That can hardly be denied (at least not with a straight face). However, I beg to differ that subcultures can be defined upon racial lines at all. > > I’m no scientist, either, but I’d bet _my_ left tit that if you gathered up 100 black physicians and 100 black inner city youth, you’d see two completely different subcultures at work. Please tell me where race has _anything_ to do with it at all. They’re all black people, right? According to you, they should share some common subculture that could be easily defined by their norms, values, and life styles. Uhm, I fail to see it. Can you honestly say you do? > > Now, grab yourself 100 black physicians and 100 white physicians and I would be willing to bet my other tit that they’d share very similar subcultures - again, without regard to race. Same for 100 inner city blacks and 100 inner city hispanics. I’d say they share the same subculture despite being of different races. > > Go to Jazz club in whatever city you live in and, according to you, the patrons would be predominantly black. Go to a Jazz club where I grew up (St. Louis - which does happen to have quite a large black community) and go to “the” neighborhood that embodies St. Louis Jazz (Soulard, for those in the know) and you will find the patrons in those clubs to be predominantly white (at least it was when I used to hang out there when I still lived in The Home of The Blues). So should I jump to the (obviously erroneous) conclusion that because most Jazz patrons _I_ saw were white, that the love of Jazz is a part of some white “subculture”? > > So no, I don’t agree at all that it follows that “if you gathered up 100 representatives from each of the subcultures in America, and recorded specific subcultural data about each of them, [and you saw] definite trends within each group represented”, that those trends would _ever_ be divided up based on race, and particularly not on race _alone_. > > Besides, the most ridiculous part of that whole presumption is that it would be possible for one to define what, exactly, “each of the subcultures in America” even _are_. What _are_ they? > > No, I’m sorry, you have not only not convinced me, you’ve actually strengthened my opposition to such notions. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/34 "2001-10-05T15:48:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gooti \* > OK **Shayna** , it’s late, I’m tired and I’m getting a headache…I hope this clears things up. > > > [@](#): > > > > In response to **gooti** : > > > > I’m not **Biggirl** , but I would still like to reply to your post. > > > > First of all, make no mistake, there has been **no** consensus here regarding acting black or white. A consensus is an opinion or position reached by a group **as a whole**. If even one person dissents, there is no consensus, and clearly more than one person has dissented here. > > Well…I don’t know what dictionary you use, but, the _Webstster’s New World Dictionary_ defines consensus as: > 1)“an opinion held by all or **most** or 2)general agreement esp. in \*\*opinion” \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > But to the real meat of your position… Your appeal to authority (the use of an as-yet-unnamed sociology text) doesn’t really hold any water for me. First of all, we don’t know if the author of that text is someone who holds opinions more likely to match yours or more likely to match **Biggirl’s**. IOW, what is his/her bias? And do you believe everything you read just because someone managed to get a book or study published? How accurate was their data? Under what conditions did they study their group(s)? What groups were chosen to be studied (if any at all)? And why were others eliminated? On what basis did they divide up their “subcultures”? And so and and so on. > > Like I said, it is a **textbook**. A book used to teach college students about introductory sociology at the University of Georgia and U. of Pennsylvania. The exact name of it is \*\* Sociology: an Introduction\*\* by J. Ross Eshelman; Barbara G. Cashon and Laurence A. Bashirico\*\*. ISBN # 0-673-39718-1. It was my future sister-in-law’s former textbook(UGA) who passed it along to my bf(U. of Penn.)…however, I had the same text in my sociology class at Mercer University in Macon, GA. So, I assume it is a generaly recognized text which teaches generally recognized information since it has been used in two public schools and a private school in two different states. > > > [@](#): > > > > Now, what I won’t disagree with is that there is such a thing as subcultures that exist within larger cultures of peoples. That can hardly be denied (at least not with a straight face). However, I beg to differ that subcultures can be defined upon racial lines at all. > > As I said before, “race” is a dubious social distinction and generally not not assumed by biologists to be biologically based at all. However, there are times that “race” and subculture do overlap. If you need an example, just ask. > > > [@](#): > > > > I’m no scientist, either, but I’d bet _my_ left tit that if you gathered up 100 black physicians and 100 black inner city youth, you’d see two completely different subcultures at work. Please tell me where race has _anything_ to do with it at all. They’re all black people, right? According to you, they should share some common subculture that could be easily defined by their norms, values, and life styles. Uhm, I fail to see it. Can you honestly say you do? > > Now, grab yourself 100 black physicians and 100 white physicians and I would be willing to bet my other tit that they’d share very similar subcultures - again, without regard to race. Same for 100 inner city blacks and 100 inner city hispanics. I’d say they share the same subculture despite being of different races. > > As I said previously, according to my understanding, occupations can be a subculture within themselves. So, the physician thing doesn’t wash - because it is, in itself, a separate subculture that usually takes precedence (according to the Hippocratic Oath) to the subcultures to which the physicians once belonged. Physicians are one subculture…lawyers are another…plain ol’ blue collar, working class black folk are another because they typically (again, not 100%) have more in common with **each other** because of their economic status than they do with physicians or lawyers. > > > [@](#): > > > > Go to Jazz club in whatever city you live in and, according to you, the patrons would be predominantly black. Go to a Jazz club where I grew up (St. Louis - which does happen to have quite a large black community) and go to “the” neighborhood that embodies St. Louis Jazz (Soulard, for those in the know) and you will find the patrons in those clubs to be predominantly white (at least it was when I used to hang out there when I still lived in The Home of The Blues). So should I jump to the (obviously erroneous) conclusion that because most Jazz patrons _I_ saw were white, that the love of Jazz is a part of some white “subculture”? > > I apologize…I forgot to say that the above mentioned _suspect_ text also said that cultures can and do change over time. Talk to Wynton Marsalis and he will tell you emphatically that jazz was originally a musical art form that African-Americans invented/created and appreciated once upon a time. Any ethnoomusicologist will tell you that, white or black. However, over time, more caucasians have begun to appreciate jazz than blacks because it doesn’t speak to the immediate concerns of modern day “black” culture as well as hip-hop or other forms of modern music does. One is no better than the other…times have just changed. BTW, I live in Atlanta…one of the largest, predominantly black major cities in the country, and when I go to jazz clubs (which I do quite often since I’m a musician and singer also) there are usually more white ppl than black ppl there. > > > [@](#): > > > > So no, I don’t agree at all that it follows that “if you gathered up 100 representatives from each of the subcultures in America, and recorded specific subcultural data about each of them, [and you saw] definite trends within each group represented”, that those trends would _ever_ be divided up based on race, and particularly not on race _alone_. > > You misunderstand me…I’m not saying that the **only** divisions are along racial lines…they are along the lines that we as humans divide ourselves along. We tend to separate ourselves within categories because of comfort and familiarity (racial and otherwise). Whether it be race, gender, sexuality, occupation (physicians), preferences(jazz music), height, weight or whatever. And that most, (not all) of the time, those divisions are defined by identifying with people that look, act, breathe, walk, talk, etc., like what we are comfortable with and identify with. > > > [@](#): > > > > Besides, the most ridiculous part of that whole presumption is that it would be possible for one to define what, exactly, “each of the subcultures in America” even _are_. What _are_ they? > > Once again, unless you too have been crashing in Mongolia your whole life, there are many: i.e Polish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, German-Americans Japanese-Americans, Inuit-Americans, Afghani-Americans, and (OH MY GOD!) :eek: African-Americans. Of course this is not an exhaustive list; it would be a waste of all of our time to try and list all of them here because you pretend not to know what they are. > > So, you are denying the indentity of the people in Chinatown (most notably in San Francisco and New York) who are Chinese-Americans and have their own culture and traditions and celebrate the New Year on a different day than most Americans do? Are you denying the identity of the Muslim-American women who wear the _hijab_ in accordance with their traditional interpretation of the Koran? Are you denying the identity of the Jewish-Americans who celebrate the recently observed Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur? Cultural norms are a fact, my dear, and unless you are a cultural elitist, they are nothing to be ashamed about or to deny. And now we’re where we left off over there. I will be composing my reply to this shortly… ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/35 "2001-10-05T16:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > Ya know, I, like most folks, ‘act differently’ depending on the circumstances. > > When I’m at a business conference, I can pretty much guarentee I’ll be wearing a bra, pro’lly won’t say ‘fuck’ etc. when I’m with my elderly conservative father, I don’t talk about sex or politics. When I’m with my 17 year old, he doesn’t want to hear about my sex life either. When I’m with my contemporaries in a social setting, the bra’s off, I swear and talk about sex and anything else on my mind. > > There’s no doubt in my mind that folks will act differently in different circumstances. What I object to, is calling one ‘acting white’ and another ‘acting black’. I think this is getting to the heart of the matter. **wring** would quite rightly object to having the different behaviors she described as “acting proper” versus “acting slutty” (not that anything she described is actually “slutty”). I think the people that are defending “acting black” may be thinking that there is no bad connotation to “being” black, so why should “acting” black be considered offensive. OTOH, “acting black” is implying a stereotype (or at least a generalization). After thinking about it, I realized that I would never actually say “acting black” myself. In the case of my black buddy that I described in an earlier post, I would probably describe his behavior as “acting like he was back in L.A.”. That’s probably a bit more factual and doesn’t imply a stereotype of black people or even black people in L.A. It is describing his usual behavior when **he** was in L.A. So I come down on the side of the those who think that people shouldn’t say “acting black” since I wouldn’t say that IRL. Having said that, using it as a shorthand in a thread called “Ask the Black Woman” is not something I would feel the need to call someone on, as long as the poster was clearly using it as shorthand and wasn’t implying any negative connotations. My 2 cents, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![saudade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@saudade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saudade)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/36 "2001-10-05T16:17:28Z")
Before these particular threads, I scoffed at people who said “African-American” instead of “black” as PC. Now I think it should be used more often. Now it can be misused, as a film reviewer I once saw who called (the British) Thandie Newton a “wonderful African-American actress”. But if I said “someone speaks in an African-American manner”. Would that make me accurate from people who say " someone talks black"? Or would I be just a more polite bigot? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/37 "2001-10-05T16:20:12Z")
Ooner wrote: > [@](#): > > Maybe we just need a new word for that specific set of behaviors that doesn’t reference race. “Ghetto” and “country” seem to be pretty popular terms around here, but I’m sure that some people in those respective places would be offended to hear that. Especially since “ghetto” was the term for the concentration-camp-like cities that the Nazis herded many of the Jews into prior to World War 2. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/38 "2001-10-05T16:26:40Z")
DADGUMMIT! I had almost my whole reply composed and this stupid computer lost the browser window. And now my boss is here demanding my attention (how dare he make me work at work! ;)), so I will have to come back later and reply. \ * * * I really appreciate your consideration in avoiding stepping on my penis - **Spiny Norman** Jeg elsker dig, Thomas ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/39 "2001-10-05T16:37:53Z")
Let see if I can clarify my question. When someone says a person is “acting black” what is this a shorthand for? When **vivian** said white people who date black people “start acting black”, what particular set of behaviors is she talking about? (I did ask her and she told me like a character in a T.V. show). Smitty said that I was being disingenous because “we all know” what acting black is, but he still did not describe what these behaviors are. Is Smitty’s “acting black” the same as vivian’s “acting black”? People tell me I sound white. I do not sound white. I have a distinct black/spanish/NY accent. I use the verb “be” to mean an action that has happened and continues to happen on a regular basis. “Don’t be following me.” Means don’t come out for a cigarrette break every time I come out for a cigarette break. I speak like this. This is a distinctive American Black usage. And yet many, many people (both black and white) tell me I talk “white”. Why? **gooti** , do you think your definition of acting black (the most thought out one I’ve heard so far) is the same as **nickc** ’s. (Lots of baggie clothes, dripping diamonds and jewlery, smoking blunts and drinking 40s). When someone says “he was acting black” to me, I honestly do not know what they mean. And I think many times even the person saying it doesn’t know what they mean. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415/40 "2001-10-05T16:42:30Z")
I have to chime in the side of “acting black” is meaningless. I understand (I think) why some people are asserting that it has meaning – it’s certainly something that people say, I’ve come across it in person and in the media, I’m not claiming that _the phrase_ doesn’t exist. It is not meaningless in the sense that “sgkjhgdoifu slf gjucvb” is meaningless – I know what “act” means, and I know what “black” means. But, I think this phrase is meaningless in the sense that it seems to mean different things to different people, and thus it’s not a very useful tool for conveying any sort of clear concept. I would compare this to the often mocked response of “fine” to the question “how are you doing?” Fine doesn’t really convey a heck of a lot of information, and could mean anything from “ok” to “horrible, but I don’t want to talk about it” to “I’m not really listening to you, so I’ll say fine and hope you will let me get back to my book.” How can one phrase have so many interpretations? Because it is void of any actual information or substance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-act-black/85415.md?page=3)