# How do you Brits get "rafe" from "Ralph" and
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [February 14, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293 "2013-02-14T16:41:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/1 "2013-02-14T16:41:19Z")
“lef-tenant” from “lieutenant”?
Just wondering. I’ll take my answer off the air. Thanks.
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### Author:  [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/2 "2013-02-14T17:10:16Z")
You could also ask why people in Boston hate the letter “r”…they don’t drive a car, they drive a “cah” and they don’t go to a party, they go to a “potty”.
And what is with you all saying “y’all”?
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### Author:  [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/3 "2013-02-14T17:19:26Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#):
>
> “lef-tenant” from “lieutenant”?
“U” and “V” were once the same letter (“V” in Latin). More recently, “V” and "F"are sometimes cousins – “V” in German is pronounced like “F.” I expect someone will come along with the details here, or show I’m mistaken, but I suspect this is at the heart of it.
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### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/4 "2013-02-14T17:28:17Z")
OED’s take on it:
> [@](#):
>
> In view of the rare Old French form _luef_ for _lieu_ (with which, compare especially the 15th century Scottish forms _luf-_, _lufftenand_ above), it seems likely that the labial glide of the Old French _lieu_ as the first element of a compound was sometimes apprehended by Englishmen as a _v_ or _f_
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### Author:  [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/5 "2013-02-14T17:37:59Z")
Nobody’s checking in on “Rafe”? Leftenant has been explained a number of times but I don’t know any basis for the unusual pronunciation of R. Vaughn Williams and R. Fiennes names.
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### Author:  [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/6 "2013-02-14T21:37:35Z")
Some guy named Ralph’s take on it:
Incidentally, it is potentially misleading to call /ˈreɪf/ a “British” pronunciation of “Ralph”, since it seems that the name was never pronounced in this way in Scotland. It is a distinctively English pronunciation – indeed, it appears to be restricted to Southern England and the English Midlands. (In Northern England – or at least in Northumberland – “Ralph” apparently used to be pronounced /ˈra:f/, very roughly so that it rhymed with the contemporary American pronunciation of “half” and “calf”.)
Excerpted from: [Home \> Ralph Wedgwood, USC Philosophy \> USC Dana and David Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences](http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~wedgwood/framesetpronunciation.html)
I don’t know his sources for his contention.
ETA: a previous thread, but I don’t know how useful it will be.
> **[Pronunciation of "Ralph Fiennes" name](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=131302)**
>
> I’m not sure if this belongs here in GQ or in MPSIMS. I figured I’d put it here since I’m pretty sure it has a definite answer. I was wondering about the pronunciation of Ralph Fiennes first name. It seems like everytime I see one of his movies...
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### Author:  [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/7 "2013-02-14T21:50:29Z")
So far as I’m aware, ‘Ralph’ pronounced ‘Rafe’ is restricted to the same English people that rhyme ‘house’ with ‘mice’- I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone called Ralph that doesn’t at least vaguely include a letter ‘l’.
English pronounciation makes no sense to most of the English either, and my friend Mr Featherstonhaugh from Cholmondeley agrees.
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### Author:  [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/8 "2013-02-14T21:52:53Z")
> [@NitroPress](#):
>
> Nobody’s checking in on “Rafe”? Leftenant has been explained a number of times but I don’t know any basis for the unusual pronunciation of R. Vaughn Williams and **R. Fiennes** names.
I always assumed that was actorly bullshit on his part, like “Topher” Grace’s bizarre shortening of Christopher. Fiennes’ brother’s name is _Joseph_ for Og’s sake!
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### Author:  [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/9 "2013-02-14T21:53:24Z")
> [@Toucanna](#):
>
> Some guy named Ralph’s take on it:
>
> Incidentally, it is potentially misleading to call /ˈreɪf/ a “British” pronunciation of “Ralph”, since it seems that the name was never pronounced in this way in Scotland. It is a distinctively English pronunciation – indeed, it appears to be restricted to Southern England and the English Midlands. (In Northern England – or at least in Northumberland – “Ralph” apparently used to be pronounced /ˈra:f/, very roughly so that it rhymed with the contemporary American pronunciation of “half” and “calf”.)
>
> Excerpted from: [http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~wedgwood/framesetpronunciation.html](http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~wedgwood/framesetpronunciation.html)
>
> I don’t know his sources for his contention.
I can confirm from personal experience that, in Northumberland and Tyneside, Ralph is often pronounced to rhyme with half. Perhaps less often these days, when the name is rarer, and people are less likely to personally know someone of that name, but it’s certainly around.
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### Author:  [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/10 "2013-02-14T22:07:10Z")
[QUOTE=DMark]
{snip}And what is with you all saying “y’all”?
[/QUOTE]
A recent thread on the subject I’m sure some of “y’all’ll” find interesting: [Hey y'all: is there any difference in how southerners/Texans vs. black people use "y'all"? - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=680803)
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### Author:  [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/11 "2013-02-14T22:07:59Z")
> [@gaffa](#):
>
> I always assumed that was actorly bullshit on his part, like “Topher” Grace’s bizarre shortening of Christopher.
Look up Taye Digg’s name origin some time if you want actorly… silliness.
I’d agree except that Ralph (“rafe”) Vaughn Williams considerably predates Fiennes.
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### Author:  [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/12 "2013-02-14T22:23:37Z")
> [@NitroPress](#):
>
> I’d agree except that Ralph (“rafe”) Vaughn Williams considerably predates Fiennes.
Sure, but that could have been who he borrowed it from, and his justification. I mean, he’s a great actor, but I assume he started this a long time ago when he was just starting out.
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### Author:  [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/13 "2013-02-14T22:49:48Z")
> [@NitroPress](#):
>
> Look up Taye Digg’s name origin some time if you want actorly… silliness.
Holy crap. He get’s Taye from Scott? That’s something right there.
I always thought that “Rafe” was a legit British pronunciation of “Ralph” but now I am not sure. Other than R. Vaughn Williams and R. Finnes, are there any other famous Ralph’s who went by Rafe?
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/14 "2013-02-14T22:52:28Z")
My wife’s piano (who studied at the British conservatory) always claimed that Van Williams pronounced it with the “l”, but the rest of his family didn’t.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/15 "2013-02-14T22:55:27Z")
While we’re at it, what’s up with the “Vaughan”? Is that a middle name or what?
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### Author:  [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/16 "2013-02-14T23:20:40Z")
Here in London we pronounce Ralph as, erm… Ralph.
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### Author:  [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/17 "2013-02-15T00:06:51Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#):
>
> While we’re at it, what’s up with the “Vaughan”? Is that a middle name or what?
I think it’s an unhyphenated hyphenate, like Conan Doyle. However, it’s a legitimate double surname, unlike Doyle…
What I’ve never gotten a good explanation of is how Arthur (first) Conan (middle) Doyle (surname) became the Conan Doyle family. It wasn’t his father’s name, but beginning in college and with his marriage, ‘Conan Doyle’ became the family name.
Then there’s Ludwig Mies [(van der) Rohe]… but let’s stop.
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### Author:  [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/18 "2013-02-15T00:28:53Z")
> [@Filbert](#):
>
> So far as I’m aware, ‘Ralph’ pronounced ‘Rafe’ is restricted to the same English people that rhyme ‘house’ with ‘mice’-
Are they related to the Northern Irish, who also swallow their “ow” sounds, or is that shared pronunciation sort of like those animals who are evolutionarily unrelated but coincidentally happen to resemble each other?
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/19 "2013-02-15T00:38:54Z")
> [@Filbert](#):
>
> ‘Ralph’ pronounced ‘Rafe’
Huh. I didn’t even know this was a thing. I always assumed “Rafe” was shorthand for Rafael.
Learn something new everyday.
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### Author:  [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2013, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-brits-get-rafe-from-ralph-and/650293/20 "2013-02-15T08:45:27Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#):
>
> “lef-tenant” from “lieutenant”?
How do you get Loo-tenant from Lieutenant? Do the barracks’ toilets get clogged up so frequently, they need a dedicated officer to watch over them?
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