# How do you combat the "Deep State" alt-narrative from the right on Trump & Russia?... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568 "2018-12-23T13:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/1 "2018-12-23T13:21:00Z")
I think that anytime Mueller or Trump/Russia is discussed, the rebuttal is this supposed deep state conspiracy. And I’m not sure how to move someone off that narrative, because Fox is pushing it as a way to shield Trump. I think this is the ready-made excuse for Republicans to ignore the reality of what Trump did, and not remove him from office. See the attached link: > **[REPORT: Huber and Horowitz Investigations Deep State Cons Constructed by...](https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2018/12/22/report-huber-and-horowitz-investigations-deep-state-cons-constructed-by-doj/)** > > Paul Sperry has an interesting report posted at RCP-Investigations outlining numerous interviews with DC politicians and would-be witnesses, if any actual DOJ investigation of the FBI and DOJ misconduct was taking place.  What Sperry discovers... Websites like treehouse & guys like Dan Bongino provide cover for the “it’s all a deep state conspiracy” argument. How do we deal with these arguments? They’re absurd on their face. But they have an impact. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/2 "2018-12-23T14:00:24Z")
I’m not certain you can. Conspiracy people gonna conspiracy after all. Well, there’s a long term solution. What conspiracy sites and Fox News and such prey upon is people’s underlying sense of disenfranchisement and uncertainty. Those especially susceptible to such things are those who feel they are somehow being left behind economically. There’s a reason conspiracy mongers such as Glenn Beck and Alex Jones exploded following the 2008 economic crash. Unfortunately, other than relieving that anxiety, I don’t see a means of dealing with such in a way that takes it out of public life. Yes, providing greater health and financial security for people via living wage laws or national health insurance will help, but I don’t believe it would deal with all of it. Some of it just comes down to generalized anxiety over a changing national landscape. The country isn’t what it was and some people have trouble coping with that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/3 "2018-12-23T16:25:16Z")
You probably can’t. To these people the narrative and the tribe trumps all. Its more important than right and wrong, the rule of law, competence, etc. As long as ‘their guy’ is under attack, they’ll invent a lie that makes them feel good so they won’t have to face reality. I’m not sure how to deal with that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/4 "2018-12-23T18:26:02Z")
From what I can tell “Deep State” means people who have been in government long enough to know what they’re doing. Imagine a long term football coach who has won his share of championships. A rookie joins the team with his own playbook. He tells everyone that he could do much better. So the coach gives him a shot during a game that doesn’t mean much. They use the rookie’s playbook, and the team gets plastered, 42 - 7. Is the playbook bad? No way - it is deep football not playing the way they’re supposed to. It is the fault of everyone but the rookie. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/5 "2018-12-23T18:29:52Z")
By reminding folks, not those pushing that narrative who are already over the edge but others who may be listening, that you never even heard the term “deep state” until trump became president. What they’re calling the “deep state” we used to call “career employees”, people who have jobs and do them regardless of who is running the show. These folks, most of whom could command (possibly) much higher salaries in the private sector ain’t about red or blue, they’re about red, white and blue. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/6 "2018-12-23T19:51:18Z")
By strongly encouraging and enabling more direct engagement and involvement with the system. Other people’s world views and powers are less mystifying when you can just see for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/7 "2018-12-23T19:56:42Z")
Why didn’t the ‘Republican deep state’, after eight years of Bush, do anything to stop Obama? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/8 "2018-12-23T20:21:39Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > By reminding folks, not those pushing that narrative who are already over the edge but others who may be listening, that you never even heard the term “deep state” until trump became president. What they’re calling the “deep state” we used to call “career employees”, people who have jobs and do them regardless of who is running the show. These folks, most of whom could command (possibly) much higher salaries in the private sector ain’t about red or blue, they’re about red, white and blue. You were fine here until you started describing career employees. My experience of those folks, at least, has been different from yours. I find them generally to be petty, scheming, and jealous of their power and their perks. In other words, just like most long-term employees anywhere. The other name for career employees is Civil Service. They can’t be fired when a new administration comes in, at least not for political reasons. This is the real deep state. I think Civil Service is one of the biggest reasons we still have a viable democracy, and one of the best protections we, as a country, have against self-aggrandizing megalomaniacs like 45. Imagine if he had been able to fill, not just the top jobs, but all the jobs at every level, with his lackeys. That’s what he’s really bemoaning with his talk about the deep state, that there are people working for the government who are loyal, and beholden, to something else besides him. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/9 "2018-12-24T20:34:23Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Why didn’t the ‘Republican deep state’, after eight years of Bush, do anything to stop Obama? The Democrat deeper state wouldn’t let them. It’s states all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/10 "2018-12-24T21:18:23Z")
I’ve found pointing and laughing to be an effective rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/11 "2018-12-24T21:27:13Z")
“Oh, you mean Russia?” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/12 "2018-12-26T04:20:32Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Why didn’t the ‘Republican deep state’, after eight years of Bush, do anything to stop Obama? To many Trumpists, same thing. Really dedicated Trumpists just see old school Republicans and Democrats as being the same. Trump is a new, populist wave, the guy who’s going to Drain The Swamp. Bush et al. were much too friendly to people who weren’t white Christians. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/13 "2018-12-26T16:29:10Z")
There’s no point in trying. Recall the analogy of playing chess against pigeons. The truth is that they are emotionally and psychologically committed to their conspiracy theory, so there are no facts or authorities they will trust to provide contradictory information. The only way to deal with them is to plainly and clearly state the facts, and then refuse to discuss the matter further. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/14 "2018-12-26T18:23:58Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > …the ready-made excuse for Republicans to **ignore the reality** of what Trump did, This is the problem right here. There’s basically nothing you can do to convince someone who has chosen, consciously or otherwise, to ignore reality. No matter what facts you put in front of them, they will still just be ignored. The only thing that could possibly work is reality itself biting them in the ass so hard that they simply can’t ignore it. The problem with that is, we’d _also_ be getting bit in the ass, and even then there’d _still_ be some people who’d manage to ignore it, and/or blame the bite marks on Obama. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/15 "2018-12-27T14:38:25Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > There’s no point in trying. Recall the analogy of playing chess against pigeons. The truth is that they are emotionally and psychologically committed to their conspiracy theory, so there are no facts or authorities they will trust to provide contradictory information. > > The only way to deal with them is to plainly and clearly state the facts, and then refuse to discuss the matter further. I agree that we won’t persuade 90 to 95% of the Trump voting crowd. I figure that maybe 5 to 10% of them are persuadable though. And I’m interested in arguments that are factual rebuttals to the conspiracy theories. Example: If the FBI was interested in getting Hillary elected, they wouldn’t have dropped the “we’re re-opening our investigation into her e-mails” bomb in late October, 2016, effectively torpedoing her campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/16 "2018-12-27T14:43:36Z")
Trump says the deep state wants him to continue the shutdown until the Dems give him the Wall. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-combat-the-deep-state-alt-narrative-from-the-right-on-trump-russia/826568/17 "2018-12-27T19:24:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > To many Trumpists, same thing. Really dedicated Trumpists just see old school Republicans and Democrats as being the same. Trump is a new, populist wave, the guy who’s going to Drain The Swamp. Bush et al. were much too friendly to people who weren’t white Christians. In 1968 George Wallace said that there wasn’t a dime’s worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats. Basically, we elected George Wallace. Except not as smart.