# How do you define fascism. Who is a fascist. And how do you identify. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111 "2019-07-15T04:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/61 "2019-07-18T19:39:33Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Too many people on this rock as it is. I say we round up people … “we”? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/62 "2019-07-18T19:52:16Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I don’t know man, there’s going to come a point where an awful lot of Trump supporters are going to try to walk back a lot of their actions and words, I’m not at all prepared to let it slide with out some contrition. Fortunately, the images of the many fascist rallies they attended are well documented. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/63 "2019-07-18T20:07:11Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Too many people on this rock as it is. I say we round up people who have demonstrated a willingness to nurture and champion fascist views, sterilize them, and put them to work in highly supervised closed communities. For their own safety, of course. Remember how we talked about private thoughts and public thoughts? Now, see what you’ve done?.. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “we”? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/64 "2019-07-18T20:21:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Why do you think this will happen? I think people like you will reach a point where you look your children in the eye, see the deep disappointment and shame, and realize that you got caught up in a whirlwind of racism, fear and ignorance. At least I hope you all have a moment of clarity like that, for your own sakes. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/65 "2019-07-18T20:36:19Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I think people like you will reach a point where you look your children in the eye, see the deep disappointment and shame, and realize that you got caught up in a whirlwind of racism, fear and ignorance. At least I hope you all have a moment of clarity like that, for your own sakes. He’s right. _“Why do you think this will happen?”_ We need to come to terms with the very real fact that overwhelmingly they knowingly voted their true hearts’ desire. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/66 "2019-07-18T21:01:29Z")
True, but fascism is unsustainable and short lived, it will flame out and red state America will be worse off than it was before. Looking at their rejection of science, for example, there will come a point when it is clear that their children have less prosperous futures because we didn’t do anything to combat climate change. Red staters with young children now will live with the reality that they actively blocked attempts to ensure their children’s future and their children will realize this as it won’t be possible to hide behind racist chants and red hats; their reality will be bleak. Fascism either collapses from within, or it is defeated by outside forces, but there’s always a bill to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/67 "2019-07-18T21:33:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Remember how we talked about private thoughts and public thoughts? > > Now, see what you’ve done?.. I know…I’m not in a “love conquers hate” sort of place this week. This week I feel like punching Nazis and making them watch me give their lunch money to non-English-speaking brown children. Or Native American scholarships even. Not because violence and thievery are right and just, but because they have it coming to them for thinking violence and thievery are right and just. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/68 "2019-07-18T22:13:45Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > I know…I’m not in a “love conquers hate” sort of place this week. This week I feel like punching Nazis and making them watch me give their lunch money to non-English-speaking brown children. Or Native American scholarships even. Not because violence and thievery are right and just, but because they have it coming to them for thinking violence and thievery are right and just. Ah…Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It’s wonderful, too, isn’t it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn’t like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/69 "2019-07-18T22:21:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ah…Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It’s wonderful, too, isn’t it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn’t like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally. Would you consider Richard Spencer a Nazi? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/70 "2019-07-18T22:57:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ah…Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It’s wonderful, too, isn’t it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn’t like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally. But, we provided definitions and then applied our observations to that definition. Nice try though. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/71 "2019-07-18T23:11:49Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Would you consider Richard Spencer a Nazi? I consider people who call themselves Nazis to be Nazis. Spencer is a racist asshole and I think that is all the descriptor he needs. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/72 "2019-07-19T00:46:18Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I consider people who call themselves Nazis to be Nazis. Spencer is a racist asshole and I think that is all the descriptor he needs. But this–and I can’t believe I’m typing this–This does Spencer a disservice. He’s not just some drunk ranting against blacks and Jews. He’s got ideas on how politics should work, on how movements should be formed, and they are often drawn from Nazi and other fascist sources. He may eschew the “Nazi” label as he knows it’s not a good look, but his ideas are straight from the Third Reich"s court philosophers. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/73 "2019-07-19T00:51:57Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ah…Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It’s wonderful, too, isn’t it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn’t like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally. Brace yourself… …whatever, dude. I have witnesses! I was provoked! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/74 "2019-07-19T01:20:26Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > True, but fascism is unsustainable and short lived, it will flame out and red state America will be worse off than it was before. Looking at their rejection of science, for example, there will come a point when it is clear that their children have less prosperous futures because we didn’t do anything to combat climate change. Red staters with young children now will live with the reality that they actively blocked attempts to ensure their children’s future and their children will realize this as it won’t be possible to hide behind racist chants and red hats; their reality will be bleak. Fascism either collapses from within, or it is defeated by outside forces, but there’s always a bill to pay. As it stands now, the red areas are financially dependent on the blue areas. Urban areas pay more in taxes than they get in benefits while blue states do the same thing. Its the opposite for rural counties and red states. So as long as the blue counties and blue states keep paying the bills for the red states, they’re going to keep doing fine. If they were cut off from the financial funds, then they’d collapse. Hillary Clinton only won 500 or so counties in 2016, while Trump won 2500. But the counties Hillary won tended to be urban, Trump rural. So the counties Hillary won made up something like 2/3 of the US GDP, while the other 1/3 was in Trump counties. If the US were broken down into blue vs red counties, their respective GDPs would be about 12 trillion vs 6 trillion respectively. If the red counties had to pay their own bills, they’d collapse. > **[Another Clinton-Trump divide: High-output America vs low-output America |...](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/another-clinton-trump-divide-high-output-america-vs-low-output-america/)** > > While looking at number of influences on the presidential vote outcome, we found that in a year of massive divides, one particular economic split stands out. With few exceptions Clinton won every large-sized county economy in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/75 "2019-07-19T01:32:14Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > But this–and I can’t believe I’m typing this–This does Spencer a disservice. He’s not just some drunk ranting against blacks and Jews. He’s got ideas on how politics should work, on how movements should be formed, and they are often drawn from Nazi and other fascist sources. He may eschew the “Nazi” label as he knows it’s not a good look, but his ideas are straight from the Third Reich"s court philosophers. Here’s the thing…there are people on this board who would call that drunk a Nazi and masturbate themselves to sleep fantasizing about punching him. You are free, and correct, to consider Spencer a loathesome bigot. I, however, don’t like to dilute the word “Nazi.” Nazis, to me, remain people who self-identify as Nazis. As I have noted, they are IME people from the bottom of the socio-economic foodchain. If they were brown people who belonged to violent gangs, I expect you would say they needed help. But, I know, it’s fun to have fantasies of righteous assbeatings delivered upon those Hitler-heiling douchebags. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/76 "2019-07-19T02:26:59Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Here’s the thing…there are people on this board who would call that drunk a Nazi and masturbate themselves to sleep fantasizing about punching him. You are free, and correct, to consider Spencer a loathesome bigot. I, however, don’t like to dilute the word “Nazi.” Nazis, to me, remain people who self-identify as Nazis. As I have noted, they are IME people from the bottom of the socio-economic foodchain. If they were brown people who belonged to violent gangs, I expect you would say they needed help. But, I know, it’s fun to have fantasies of righteous assbeatings delivered upon those Hitler-heiling douchebags. I don’t know or want to know what dopers masturbate to, so I can’t comment on the first bit. For the rest I can only repeat that there’s a lot more to fascism than race hatred. Contempt for Democracy and institutions, including a free press. Military worship, Nationalism. Etc. It’s possible to envision a fascist society that doesn’t involve racism, though I can’t think of any examples. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/77 "2019-07-19T02:32:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ah…Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It’s wonderful, too, isn’t it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? … Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn’t like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally. But when you start rounding people up and putting them in concentration camps, the comparisons are inevitable. If you guys want people to stop comparing you to Nazis, stop doing things that invite the comparison. And now let’s address the rest of your post: > [@Scumpup](#): > > All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. I think you failed to read the room. Very few people are going to share your sympathy for the poor beleaguered Nazis. Regardless of whatever hardships they’ve experienced, choosing to become a Nazi was the wrong response. I’ll point out that most people, unlike you, don’t know any Nazis personally. So whatever social circles you’re hanging out in where you see these Nazis are probably places where you should stop going. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/78 "2019-07-19T02:38:02Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > It’s possible to envision a fascist society that doesn’t involve racism, though I can’t think of any examples. I don’t think it’s possible. I think fascism needs an enemy in order to exist. It gives the fascist movement a focus for the hatred it calls upon from its followers. And as a bonus, it gives the fascists somebody convenient to blame for all the problems that are going to exist in any society run by a fascist regime. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/79 "2019-07-19T04:38:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But when you start rounding people up and putting them in concentration camps, the comparisons are inevitable. If you guys want people to stop comparing you to Nazis, stop doing things that invite the comparison. > > And now let’s address the rest of your post: > > I think you failed to read the room. Very few people are going to share your sympathy for the poor beleaguered Nazis. Regardless of whatever hardships they’ve experienced, choosing to become a Nazi was the wrong response. > > I’ll point out that most people, unlike you, don’t know any Nazis personally. So whatever social circles you’re hanging out in where you see these Nazis are probably places where you should stop going. You were a screw. How many educated, wealthy Nazis did you know? The difference, I guess, between you and me, is that when I look at someone who is the product of poverty, ignorance, and anger, I don’t think his skin color is what matters most. Clearly, “reading the room” is your priority. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111/80 "2019-07-19T11:19:49Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ah…Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It’s wonderful, too, isn’t it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn’t like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally. [This bit by John Cleese summed it up very well.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4) \*"The biggest advantage of extremism is that it makes you feel GOOD because it provides you with enemies. Let me explain. The great thing about having enemies is that you can pretend that all the badness in the whole world is in your enemies, and all the goodness in the whole world is in YOU. Attractive, isn’t it? So, if you have a lot of anger and resentment in you anyway and you therefore enjoy abusing people, then you can pretend that you’re only doing it because these enemies of yours are such very bad persons! And if it wasn’t for them, you’d actually be good natured, and courteous, and rational all the time. So, if you want to FEEL GOOD, become an extremist. You can strut around, abusing people, and telling them you could eat them for breakfast and still think of yourself as a champion of the truth. A fighter for the greater good. And not the rather sad paranoid schizoid that you really are."\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-define-fascism-who-is-a-fascist-and-how-do-you-identify/837111.md?page=5)