# How do you enforce bathroom gender laws without checking IDs and/or genitals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121 "2016-04-25T20:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/21 "2016-04-26T03:16:16Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > should be arrested. Why are we making laws that victimize the victims? the problem is not the transgender people. You attack someone, you get arrested. Very simple. No need for ID or gender checks. No arguments here. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/22 "2016-04-26T03:50:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Don’t be too cocksure (see what I did there?) before having experienced the environment in question. I hear from folks like **watchwolf49** and **octopus** that said men’s rooms are foul noisome swamps brimming with excreta in inappropriate places. :eek: Yeah. Men aren’t that thrilled to go into a public men’s room. They do stink, there’s always trash on the floor, and the floor is always wet. There’s always at least one unflushed toilet. We’d rather go outside. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/23 "2016-04-26T03:50:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I hear from folks like **watchwolf49** and **octopus** that said men’s rooms are foul noisome swamps brimming with excreta in inappropriate places. :eek: And I hear from cleaning and maintenance folks that women’s public restrooms are dirtier than men’s restrooms. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/24 "2016-04-26T04:12:43Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > And I hear from cleaning and maintenance folks that women’s public restrooms are dirtier than men’s restrooms. I have no way of knowing from personal experience. But if men’s public restrooms are no dirtier on average than the women’s public restrooms I frequent, everywhere from malls to fast-food restaurants to supermarkets to office buildings, then I’m not scared. (And I’m certainly not seeing in women’s rooms constantly wet floors or routinely (as opposed to occasionally) unflushed toilets, much less the type of grossness that **watchwolf49** talks about; nor are they particularly stinky, considering that they’re bathrooms.) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/25 "2016-04-26T04:40:28Z")
How do we enforce the vast majority of criminal laws now? People call 911 and make a complaint. And how often will this happen with bathroom gender laws? Not very often–primarily when transgendered people act offensively. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/26 "2016-04-26T04:40:47Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > What I meant was, you should be allowed to choose whatever bathroom you want, no matter what your reason, even if your reason is “I don’t \*\*get beat up here.” If a petite, effeminate gay man tends to get beat up in the men’s room, and want to use the women’s room, he should. Even if he fully identifies as male, and looks it. I understand. I think it would probably be safe to assume a mens room would be a higher risk for violence than a women’s room, all things considered. But,as far as the safety aspect, how does having a transman use a mens room make them any more safe from attack? If anything, the risk for violence seems like it would _increase_ when a transman uses the restroom they identity with. Or is the safety issue only relevant for trans women who are forced to use the mens room? ---
**Author:** ![Annoying\_Buzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/27 "2016-04-26T05:35:44Z")
> [@andros](#): > > How do you enforce bathroom gender laws without checking IDs and/or genitals? > > You **don’t**. The people passing these laws know quite well that they are not enforceable. > . Or, when you know that someone is transgender, you follow them around until they need to use the bathroom. It’s legally-sanctioned harassment. ---
**Author:** ![quiltguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e47774/32.png) [@quiltguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/28 "2016-04-26T13:07:04Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > Since they can chip dogs it should be easy to chip people. Do it at birth before any unmentionable bits get messed around with. Could even have locks on bathroom doors triggered by the chips! So I won’t be seeing you at Carousel? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/29 "2016-04-26T13:32:44Z")
Here’s some ideas. Slap the suspects in solitary confinement until they shit or piss themselves. Observe the process closely with a panel of physicians and psychologists. It the team decides the suspects were using the correct bathroom, give them a cleaning rag and send them on their way. If they were using the wrong bathroom, seize all their property and send them on their way. Also, “enhanced interrogation” should be useful. Well, ok, it won’t, but everybody loves waterboarding pervs! ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/30 "2016-04-26T13:38:49Z")
I really wish people would treat this like a forum for debates and at least give the supporters of these laws a day or so to make serious replies before filling the thread up with non-debate. I’m genuinely interested in whether or not anyone who supports these laws actually has some idea of how they are supposed to work. > [@PastTense](#): > > How do we enforce the vast majority of criminal laws now? People call 911 and make a complaint. And how often will this happen with bathroom gender laws? Not very often–primarily when transgendered people act offensively. So you feel that a person who doesn’t fit a particular person’s appearance standards warrants a 911 call? In some areas that’s a general police line, but in most (AFAIK, and at least ‘many’) areas it’s for emergencies only. I don’t really think ‘that woman has facial hair’ (which can and does happen to non-trans women) or ‘that person has short hair and is wearing a shirt loose enough that I can’t see boobs’ really constitute an emergency, so I disagree with the idea of using a 911 call right off the bat. How does the person end up talking to the police about the complaint - generally it’s going to take longer for a cop to show up than for a person to pee an leave, so will someone at the store be empowered to detain them or make a citizen’s arrest on the grounds that they don’t look quite right? Or will you snap a picture of them in the bathroom (often already a crime in itself) and hand that to the cops, who will later hunt them down? And what is going to be the result of the 911 call even if it works? Aren’t you still going to end with the police doing an ID and/or genital check, which means you’d be using those tools to enforce the law? And, of course, to many of the supporters of these laws, trans people act offensively by simply existing, so what you’re saying is that your 911 calls will happen whenever a trans person _gasp_ tries to pee while out in public. I’ve seen people post stuff on facebook bragging that they’d beat someone who looks masculine for going into a women’s restroom, and multiple senior LEOs have endorsed assaulting trans people, this isn’t some speculative possible harm I just made up for argument. (I’ve also talked to trans people and it’s much scarier, but I don’t really expect any sympathy for trans people in this case) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/31 "2016-04-26T13:39:26Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Do any proponents of such things actually have a practical, workable solution to determining which bathroom a person belongs in? > [@PastTense](#): > > How do we enforce the vast majority of criminal laws now? People call 911 and make a complaint. And how often will this happen with bathroom gender laws? Not very often–primarily when transgendered people act offensively. I really think this is the best serious answer to the OP’s question. I also think that “proponents of such things” think that they want things to go “back the way they were,” when men were men and women were women and there was a clear and obvious difference between them and everybody used their own restroom. Their answer to the “how” question would be “Just go back to doing things the way we used to.” ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/32 "2016-04-26T13:48:44Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I understand. I think it would probably be safe to assume a mens room would be a higher risk for violence than a women’s room, all things considered. But,as far as the safety aspect, how does having a transman use a mens room make them any more safe from attack? If anything, the risk for violence seems like it would _increase_ when a transman uses the restroom they identity with. It’s much, much easier for transmen to pass as ‘a dude’, especially since a lot of trans men embrace the ‘big, muscular man’ look once they are able to transition. They will generally have some degree of facial hair, wear pants, cut their hair in men’s styles, and adopt manly mannerisms. There aren’t as many little signs that are hard to hide, and homophobia works in their favor - generally telling a man that he looks like a chick is a good way to start a fight, same with observing another guy too closely in the bathroom. But since they look entirely masculine (beard or stubble, muscles, male clothes, and so on) if they walk into a women’s room it reads clearly as a man going into the women’s room, which prompts the 911 calls PastTense was talking about, and may prompt men to come in and evict the intruder to protect the women inside. Most of the supporters of these bills don’t even really seem to know that trans men even exist, so this doesn’t really even cross their minds. And the anger seems to center around “how dare that person ‘born a man’ dare to look female and tempt me into becoming a gay,” there doesn’t seem to be a burning hatred for trans men anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/33 "2016-04-28T22:59:39Z")
I think the main issue here is not where a member of public who outwardly appears to be of the appropriate gender uses a restroom and the proprietor or other users of the restroom have no knowledge that the user is transgender. The issue is which rest room is to be used in a school or place of employment or other environment where the proprietor or other users of restroom know that the user **is** transgender. In other words, the question that people have is, when Johnny comes to school or work one day in a dress and announces that henceforth he is Joanie, where, or where, shall she pee? How could this “person” (note scare quotes) with a penis (or that formerly had a penis) go into the girls room without something unspeakable happening? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/34 "2016-04-28T23:06:47Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > +1 > > I’ll be happy to use a men’s room to strike a blow for individual freedom. Easiest activism ever. Depends on whether or not all the stalls are taken. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/35 "2016-04-28T23:16:04Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I really wish people would treat this like a forum for debates and at least give the supporters of these laws a day or so to make serious replies before filling the thread up with non-debate. **I’m genuinely interested in whether or not anyone who supports these laws actually has some idea of how they are supposed to work.** Granted, this did descend into IMHO humor pretty quickly, but are there actually any posters here who support these laws? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/36 "2016-04-28T23:40:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yeah. Men aren’t that thrilled to go into a public men’s room. They do stink, there’s always trash on the floor, and the floor is always wet. There’s always at least one unflushed toilet. We’d rather go outside. I’ve had to clean public restrooms, and all of those things can be found in women’s rooms too. Plus women’s restrooms tend have certain used products left in places other than the receptacle specifically intended for them. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/37 "2016-04-29T00:19:05Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Granted, this did descend into IMHO humor pretty quickly, but are there actually any posters here who support these laws? If you look at the threads on the topic, you will see people arguing in favor of the laws, or arguing that ‘maybe this law is not exactly right, but we can’t have men in dresses going into the women’s room!’. At the same time, they scoff at the idea of having some kind of ID-reader or junk-examiner around to settle disputes, but don’t seem to have any answer for how the setup is supposed to work without it. I didn’t really expect a good answer because this isn’t the kind of position supported by rational thought, but I figured it was worth giving supporters a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/38 "2016-04-29T00:27:10Z")
> [@Billdo](#): > > I think the main issue here is not where a member of public who outwardly appears to be of the appropriate gender uses a restroom and the proprietor or other users of the restroom have no knowledge that the user is transgender. Why do you think legal authority should be used to force people to comply with gender norms for their appearance? Laws forbidding women to wear pants have been repeatedly struck down, so there doesn’t seem to be much basis for a law requiring that every woman must either pass an arbitrary person’s opinion on whether she ‘looks female’ enough to use a public restroom or wear depends when she goes out in public, but a standard of ‘if you appear to be female…’ does exactly that. There have been multiple cases of cis women who have a butch or androgynous appearance being evicted from restrooms and/or threatened with violence, so this isn’t just a trans issue. And yes, I think the main issue here is that people who are not conforming enough to a gender standard are being effectively denied the right to use the restroom in public. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/39 "2016-04-29T12:05:24Z")
I think we need everyone to call their local police stations and asking for officers to be posted at public restroom doors. Politicians will eventually see how much this would cost, and money seems to have an affect on them. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121/40 "2016-04-29T12:53:44Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I really wish people would treat this like a forum for debates and at least give the supporters of these laws a day or so to make serious replies before filling the thread up with non-debate. I’m genuinely interested in whether or not anyone who supports these laws actually has some idea of how they are supposed to work. Correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t these laws typically been rushed into existence to defend schools whose administrations have been forced to make decisions about which bathrooms transitioning transgendered students need to use? It doesn’t seem to matter which policy schools ultimately decide on, they’re going to get sued by one side (the LGBTQ community) or the other (conservative Christians). So to answer the OP, it will be enforceable because everyone already _knows_ what gender the potential “offenders” were born as, because they know they by name. The lawmakers didn’t really ever care about who uses the bathroom at Target, this was all about schools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-enforce-bathroom-gender-laws-without-checking-ids-and-or-genitals/753121.md?page=3)