# How do you expect the shutdown to end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088 "2013-10-01T14:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/141 "2013-10-12T15:02:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you don’t think the President is negotiating right now, while also saying that he’s not negotiating, I have some fine land in Florida to sell you. I bet you’ll buy it, too. If you think the President is actually a secret lizard person, I have a a large number of magnetic healing bracelets I’d be happy to sell you. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/142 "2013-10-12T15:31:19Z")
[Sure, no negotiations are happening. None at all. Nope.](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/327923-boehner-mum-after-white-house-meeting) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/143 "2013-10-12T15:42:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [Sure, no negotiations are happening. None at all. Nope.](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/327923-boehner-mum-after-white-house-meeting) Below the thunders of the upper deep, Far, far beneath in the abysmal sea, His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee About his shadowy sides; above him swell Huge sponges of millennial growth and height; And far away into the sickly light, From many a wondrous grot and secret cell Unnumber’d and enormous polypi Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green. There hath he lain for ages, and will lie Battening upon huge sea-worms in his sleep, Until the latter fire shall heat the deep; Then once by man and angels to be seen, In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/144 "2013-10-12T15:45:42Z")
“Are you threatening me?” – Bevis, aka Cornholio ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/145 "2013-10-12T16:31:16Z")
The amount of agreement I have with what **Martin** is currently espousing scares me. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > … I’m fine with the President’s position that he won’t negotiate while the government is shut down or “under the threat of default”, I’m not fine with this concept that he should not negotiate at all. … > > … If “unconditional surrender” means “raising the debt ceiling and getting a CR in the short term, then negotiation” I’m fine with that. If it means “no negotiation at all even if we get a CR and a debt ceiling increase” then no, that’s not acceptable. … And all along that has been the President’s position. Pass a clean CR, raise the debt limit, and then let’s talk. Not until then. Not with a gun to the head of the American people, put the gun down first. Modified to a good faith offer of making that clean CR and/or debt limit raise time limited items. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Anyway, it appears the House-Obama negotiations ended in failure. … To the degree that they have not yet accepted the terms that they must accept before the next stage can happen. They will and they are idiots for not doing it sooner rather than later. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Anyone that knew anything about politics or history knew for a fact 15 days before the shutdown that if there was a shutdown the GOP would be blamed. Simple fact. … Yet amazingly the minority that is the majority of the majority in the House, representing that 18% of America that agrees with them, thought that it might play out otherwise. (They need to listen to some other radio than Beck and Hannity.) Or perhaps feels that torpedoing the GOP will serve their longer term interests … the House members most likely to lose seats over this are in point of fact the more centrist ones who still consented to this tactic by their silence and initial votes. The hardcore TPers are not in too many of those 24 potentially swingable districts. Thus the shake-out may be a bigger voice for the TP in the House than before … unless the House actually flips (might but still less than a coin flip chance) or their overplay incites successful primarying from the center Right more traditional conservative Republicans. After the hostages are released the parties should sit and talk. Each will have to give and take some. Yes, the GOP will end up getting some of they want and Obama will get some of what he wants. That sort of horse trading is the way things should work. The GOP tactic throughout Obama’s years of “No. No. No.” to everything he wants, obsessive focus on undoing what they were unable to say no to before, threatening to blow up the country to get their way, and then claiming that poor them are being oppressed by the tyranny of the majority … is how this Congress has successfully not worked. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/146 "2013-10-13T00:33:35Z")
Funny enough a follow up to that last of Martin’s points[in the Sunday New York Times.](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/opinion/sunday/douthat-the-kurtz-republicans.html?hp) > [@](#): > > But there is still something well-nigh-unprecedented about how Republicans have conducted themselves of late. It’s not the scale of their mistake, or the kind of damage that it’s caused, but the fact that their strategy was such self-evident folly, so transparently devoid of any method whatsoever. > > Every sensible person, most Republican politicians included, could recognize that the shutdown fever would blow up in the party’s face. Even the shutdown’s ardent champions never advanced a remotely compelling story for how it would deliver its objectives. And everything that’s transpired since, from the party’s polling nose dive to the frantic efforts to save face, was entirely predictable in advance. > > The methodless madness distinguishes this shutdown from prior Congressional Republican defeats (the Gingrich shutdown, the Clinton impeachment), when you could at least see what the politicians involved were thinking. And it distinguishes it, too, from many of history’s marches of folly as well. … ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/147 "2013-10-13T00:52:15Z")
Boehner gets enough pressure from the business class to allow a clean bill. He pisses off the tea party, and probably loses his speakership if not his seat because he is only 90% republican. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/148 "2013-10-13T10:36:43Z")
Clean debt limit extension, clean CR. The Democrats are now talking about undoing the sequester, which is spooking the Republicans. At this point, just folding and keeping the sequester is the best outcome possible. Seems that since Iraq, Republicans still don’t know which wars to fight and which not to fight. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/149 "2013-10-13T12:46:21Z")
Given the Republicans are starting to cave, I can now agree that Obama probably doesn’t need to cave and will end up looking good. I don’t understand how the Republicans allowed the Tea Party to rope them into this folly when everyone could see from the beginning it wasn’t a fight worth having or that could be won. Obama and the Democrats just need to be careful not to push for too much and overreach. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/150 "2013-10-13T16:18:35Z")
From your lips to the Ears. My only criticism of this analysis from Rose E. Scenario and her academic partner Marge N. Overra is that the premise relies on reasonable and rational behavior. Which does not exactly lie thick upon the ground. I am not remotely pleased to present this case, but it is unavoidable. If Obama is convinced that surrendering to the Insane Clown Posse is very bad, but nothing else will avoid the default, which is catastrophic, he may have no option but to cave. You can’t play chicken with a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/151 "2013-10-13T17:24:30Z")
Going back to the OT, I figure each side will claim victory and blame the other side’s intransigence for making it necessary and lasting so long. And there’ll be a strong “Vote them out in 2014” flavour on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/152 "2013-10-13T21:31:01Z")
Obama is at heart a Reagan Republican. He WANTS to cave. He is EAGER to cave. He LUSTS to give the Republicans a chunk of Medicaid or Social Security. He can’t give up Obamacare, but watch what his left hand is doing while his right hand waves the “no fold” on Obamacare card. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/153 "2013-10-13T22:46:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Obama is at heart a Reagan Republican. He WANTS to cave. He is EAGER to cave. He LUSTS to give the Republicans a chunk of Medicaid or Social Security. He can’t give up Obamacare, but watch what his left hand is doing while his right hand waves the “no fold” on Obamacare card. Not a chance. I think at this point he understands that if he loses this battle, he loses the war. The Republicans will just become emboldened and take every battle to the brink expecting him to fold, and his own team will question his leadership at ever turn. I think The Money is going to weigh in rather heavily behind the scenes this week. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/154 "2013-10-13T22:59:24Z")
This week? They weighed in \*last \* week! Bounced off the Insane Clown Posse like a BB off a rhino! I’m wondering if the dumfucks have fallen prey to their own propaganda, The Kochs and other unindictable co-conspirators have been funneling money to them by way of populist sounding front groups for so long, they really believe that all their money is coming to them from The People. So they don’t really realize who is writing their checks. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/155 "2013-10-13T23:03:15Z")
What is the Insane Clown Posse? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/156 "2013-10-13T23:15:24Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What is the Insane Clown Posse? The Tea Party idiots in the house. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/157 "2013-10-13T23:48:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This week? They weighed in \*last \* week! Bounced off the Insane Clown Posse like a BB off a rhino! > > I’m wondering if the dumfucks have fallen prey to their own propaganda… I think you should go ahead and stop wondering. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/158 "2013-10-14T00:14:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Tea Party idiots in the house. Ah, the Tea Baggers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/159 "2013-10-14T13:39:28Z")
[Money](http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/14/news/economy/debt-ceiling-world/index.html?iid=Lead) talks. It will get a lot louder and more urgent as the week wears on. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088/160 "2013-10-15T05:12:46Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m fine with the President’s position that he won’t negotiate while the government is shut down or “under the threat of default” Yep, thats all I meant. Unconditional surrender of the hostages. They don’t get ANYTHING in exchange for releasing the hostages. > [@](#): > > I’m not fine with this concept that he should not negotiate at all. This is called the normal budget process. You can blame the lack of a budget for the first two years of Obama’s presidency on Democratic cowardice, you can blame the last few years on Republican refusal to go to conference on a budget. > [@](#): > > I do think it is reasonable to say “let’s reopen the government, lets raise the debt ceiling, and then we’ll talk.” But the CR needs to be of short duration, so that there is actually a reason to talk. So there needs to be at least the threat of hostage taking? You realize that there is a regular order to things in the budget process, right? And the threat of hostage taking is not part of it. > [@](#): > > If it means “no negotiation at all even if we get a CR and a debt ceiling increase” then no, that’s not acceptable. The Republicans control half the legislature, the idea that they should have no impact on policy is not reasonable and is not the way the constitution was designed. The Republicans don’t want to impact the budget, they want to dictate it. Thats the problem. They won’t go to conference. > [@DigitalC](#): > > The problem with this is the Republicans have to give something other than ending the shutdown or increasing the debt ceiling in a negotiation. And they are not likely to do that. Why do they HAVE to give something? I happen to think they SHOULD, but Obama is such a wimp (and I voted for him three times), I suspect he will not punish them for their hostage taking. > [@adaher](#): > > Clean debt limit extension, clean CR. The Democrats are now talking about undoing the sequester, which is spooking the Republicans. > > At this point, just folding and keeping the sequester is the best outcome possible. > > Seems that since Iraq, Republicans still don’t know which wars to fight and which not to fight. How about just making the sequester less of a meat cleaver and being a bit more selective about where you cut the funds. Heck, both sides want it. [quote=“computergeek, post:149, topic:670088”] Given the Republicans are starting to cave, I can now agree that Obama probably doesn’t need to cave and will end up looking good. I don’t understand how the Republicans allowed the Tea Party to rope them into this folly when everyone could see from the beginning it wasn’t a fight worth having or that could be won. [/quote The Republican party is in danger of fracture. There are about 30 hard core tea partiers in the house and none of them took their seats away from a Democrat. They are a constant reminder to every other Republican in the house that they risk losing their jobs if they don’t toe an ideological line. There is a lot of money out there that is backing these primaries from the right. > [@](#): > > Obama and the Democrats just need to be careful not to push for too much and overreach. I am frankly shocked that Obama hasn’t caved already and offered to kill school lunches and food stamps in the process. I’m starting to think that maybe he’s not such a terrible President after all. > [@elucidator](#): > > This week? They weighed in \*last \* week! Bounced off the Insane Clown Posse like a BB off a rhino! They don’t have to convince the tea partiers that they have to stop. They just have to convince the other Republicans that they will not get primaried. > [@Chimera](#): > > It will get a lot louder and more urgent as the week wears on. Right now Wall Street seems to think that this is a very good turn of events. The lower the Republican approval rating goes the better the market does. They are hoping this is the end of the craziness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-expect-the-shutdown-to-end/670088.md?page=9)