How do you maintain classroom discipline?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Retired High School teacher here. I had very few discipline problems over the 30 years I taught. Setting the stage on the first day was important…at the beginning of the first class, it went something like this.

  1. “Welcome, my name is Mr Sunstone, and this is Biology, 4th period”

  2. “You will hear lots of rules today, but since you have all been in school for at least ten years, you already know how things work. In this class, two things bear mentioning: Please treat all living things (including your friends) with respect, and make sure you let me know if you need to leave the room.”

  3. “We are going to start off with a lab. Please pick up the lab papers on the side counter, and visit each station in any order. You may work together in groups of no more than three. Be sure you can defend your answer, even if it turns out to be incorrect.”

  4. “You will need to use your time wisely in order to finish…I’ll be circulating among you, so if you need help, please ask. Lets go!”

That took about the first 5 minutes, with the lab using the rest of the period. I figured that getting out and leading the parade was better than being run over…and I had a lot of fun. And I smiled.

22

[QUOTE=silenus]
As a General Rule, there are usually a few alphas in any given class. Control them, and you control the others. How you control them is, of course, up to the teacher and the situation. As a high school teacher, I have a different strategy than I would if I were a, Og forbid, middle-school teacher. You can generally count on enlightened self-interest to motivate a number of the more intransigent students. A quick pointing out of where your mutual goals overlap, and what will happen to the rest of their lives should they no longer overlap, and that’s it. The only “regular” classes I teach are to seniors, so I have all the cards if they ever hope to graduate.

General Rule #2: An appeal to pride will often work where self-interest fails. See the aforementioned “I’m sorry. I thought you were ______, not middle-school students.”
[/QUOTE]

Alphas is the word I was looking for without knowing I was looking for it, silenus. :smack: Thank you for your input, I should have thought of it myself as that very much describes the type of kid I was trying to convey.

I could see how an appeal to pride in the manner you describe would work in some cases, but unfortunately I knew some students who would be almost proud to recieve a comment like that. Holding the graduation card would be rather effective in almost every case that it applies to, I think, as I have seen it put into action successfully first hand.

To those of you who did have students who had moderate to severe discipline problems, how are you disposed to accepting an appology from them years down the road? How did that student(s) affect you, and do you still get a little riled up thinking about certaing troublemakers many semesters after the fact?

23

Actually, percentage-wise it’s been the trouble-makers who have taken the effort to keep in touch over the years. They generally look back on their time with me as educational and instructive, and they usually thank me for busting their balls. I forgive fairly easily, because I know what kind of student I was in high school!

24

I notice that most of the folks responding in this thread are high school teachers or college TAs. TA-ing is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. I can only remember one discipline problem in four years of TA-ing, which was quickly resolved by telling the student to stop making an ass of himself. The problems there are more about grades and the like.

In the K-6 ranks we often refer to “breaking” kids - taking on the discipline problem(s) and getting him/her under control. I always had more success with the boys rather than the girls in this respect. It’s really hard (and dangerous) to deal with girls for men… so many things can go wrong and you can be accused of some really jacked up stuff… of course, it’s true of any kids - never touch or do anything behind a closed door.

One of my favorite kids was a real knucklehead as a third grader. One time a fellow teacher and I busted him bullying some of his classmates. As a parting shot, I said to him, “I hope I get you in my class year. I can’t wait.” The look on his face was priceless!

First day of class, Rico is acting up. I got to know his two older sisters the year before. I said to him, “Rico, this can work two ways. You can get it together and focus on getting your reading up to grade level this year and being a leader, or you can try to act a fool every day - and I promise, I will be at your house every day letting your mama know what you’ve been up to. Your choice.” Guess what he chose? Through his sisters I dropped dime on this kid every day, and by the time I got to the house his mom had already raked him over the coals - his sisters would exaggerate his malfeasances, I’m sure. Finally, about a month into the year, Rico struggles through the day with no major problems… has his homework, even does a good job as monitor.

I square him up. “Rico, you know I’m going to your house today,” I say. He looks crestfallen. “Of course, I’m going to have to tell your mom you had a pretty good day.” Kid’s face lights up like a Christmas tree. I go to his house, tell his mom about how well he did and how I appreciated her staying on his case. She starts to cry. he starts to cry. I hightail it out of there before I start to cry… and from the point on, Rico was putty in my hands. If I needed him to do anything he’d jump to do it.

I also sent the well-behaved kids on errands to their third- and second-grade teachers. They loved being shown off as “big kids” and looking like a big shot in front of their cousins and siblings.

Shodan’s right. At a tough inner-city school like mine, you wouldn’t dare send a kid to the office unless he/she took a swing at you or was beating the crap out of somebody. If you wanted to undermine any credibility you might have had among the staff, just send a kid to the office… because the kid would be back in five minutes and tell you, “The principal said for you to deal with me yourself.” We worked out time outs in each others’ classes. My friend taught 5th grade - so her kids who acted out would come to my class and have to suffer the ignominy of sitting in a 4th grade classroom as an example of a loser. Conversely, my kids would be embarrassed to go to the next grade up as an example of a immature kid. We’d always make a comment, like “It’s too bad you can’t behave in your classroom and you have to come to fourth grade to learn how to behave.” Sweet.

25

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]

I square him up. “Rico, you know I’m going to your house today,” I say. He looks crestfallen. “Of course, I’m going to have to tell your mom you had a pretty good day.” Kid’s face lights up like a Christmas tree. I go to his house, tell his mom about how well he did and how I appreciated her staying on his case. She starts to cry. he starts to cry. I hightail it out of there before I start to cry… and from the point on, Rico was putty in my hands. If I needed him to do anything he’d jump to do it.

.*
[/QUOTE]

Hippy Hollow, you sound like a really good and dedicated teacher. (All of you do, in fact, but Hippy’s ability to “break” a 10 year old astounds me.) I cannot imagine doing your job; the world needs more like you. Bravo.

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[QUOTE=Renee]
Hippy Hollow, you sound like a really good and dedicated teacher. (All of you do, in fact, but Hippy’s ability to “break” a 10 year old astounds me.) I cannot imagine doing your job; the world needs more like you. Bravo.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your kind words, Renee. I’m no longer teaching though… I’m working on a doctorate and plan to work on breaking 18-22 year olds when I finish. I give props to the vets who stick it out - teachers only get better with time (that is, if they give a damn, love kids, and love teaching). Everything I learned in the classroom of value came from a battle-tested vet.

27

I love this thread as I’m going to begin teaching in about two weeks!

I’ll be teaching band soon, and I’m thinking of instituting the “band bucks” system. Essentially kids are rewarded with band bucks for good behaviour and for helping with tasks I assign them (cleaning up music stands, leading a warm up, etc) and at the end of the term we have an auction for prizes where they can spend their band bucks. As well they could pool their band bucks for a class party as well…

Of course bucks are taken away for misbehaviour as well. And the the amount of bucks will relate to their marks in the attitude/behaviour area of their mark.

Anyone ever use a system like this? I’ll be teaching 6th grade.

I hope it doesn’t get too expensive…I may just allow them to be used for better marks. I’m not sure though.

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[QUOTE=Quasimodal]
I love this thread as I’m going to begin teaching in about two weeks!

I’ll be teaching band soon, and I’m thinking of instituting the “band bucks” system. Essentially kids are rewarded with band bucks for good behaviour and for helping with tasks I assign them (cleaning up music stands, leading a warm up, etc) and at the end of the term we have an auction for prizes where they can spend their band bucks. As well they could pool their band bucks for a class party as well…

Of course bucks are taken away for misbehaviour as well. And the the amount of bucks will relate to their marks in the attitude/behaviour area of their mark.

Anyone ever use a system like this? I’ll be teaching 6th grade.

I hope it doesn’t get too expensive…I may just allow them to be used for better marks. I’m not sure though.
[/QUOTE]

I dunno, it depends on you. Are you rewarding kids for doing stuff they should be doing? If so I’m personally against that stuff. It also seems like you have a lot of work involved in keeping track of how to reward bucks. If you don’t mind it and you can handle it, by all means, but it seems a little unwieldy.

A reward system should be a) easy to administer and b) not cost very much. You can convince kids that any little thing is a huge reward… how about bringing a cool guitar to class, or a drum machine that they can play with as a reward? Or recording their music on a CD. That stuff wouldn’t cost you anything at all, hardly, I think.

I’d also check with other teachers at your school(s), because they might have good stuff they do that you could adopt. Plus veteran teachers love to be asked how they deal with situation… don’t discount the importance of connecting to your fellow faculty members. Those folks can make or break your year in more ways than one.

29

It’s hard to explain. Yes, teaching is an exercise in using The Force.

My own technique involves keeping them off balance, particularly The Alphas; as previously stated, if you can handle them, you can handle anyone.

Much of my technique involves making them wonder what the hell the crazy man is going to do next. Storytelling is also a good move, if you can keep them engaged; I’ve been told I have a knack for storytelling…

…but never let them forget: the thing the crazy man does next may well involve discipline or punishment of some sort. Make an example, now and again. But make it very clear what will result in discipline, and what will result in a positive result. Always PRETEND to give them an option, while steering them in the direction you want them to choose, if you follow what I mean.

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[QUOTE=Quasimodal]
I’ll be teaching band soon, and I’m thinking of instituting the “band bucks” system. Essentially kids are rewarded with band bucks for good behaviour and for helping with tasks I assign them (cleaning up music stands, leading a warm up, etc) and at the end of the term we have an auction for prizes where they can spend their band bucks. As well they could pool their band bucks for a class party as well…

Of course bucks are taken away for misbehaviour as well.
[/QUOTE]

I see some aspects of this that I think might keep it from being effective.

One is the delay in reaping a tangible reward. End of term can be a long way off, especially for a youngster. Until then said reward is hypothetical.

Another is the auction. It can be very difficult to get equal or proportionate benefit for one’s “money” at these sorts of auctions. Bidding for the desirable items raises their price so as to dilute the purchasing power of the currency used. Sometimes people end up stuck with stuff that they really don’t care for, because that’s all they could get via auction. I think a “store” format, where for example a certain number of band bucks can be counted on to garner a given item, is a better approach.

What may be the worst is taking away something already given. If you give me something but reserve the right to take it back, you haven’t really given it. You’ve lent it. Psychologically, having something taken back can be worse than never having got it in the first place. I think it undermines the effect of rewards for good behavior and is counterproductive. There are other ways to attach consequences to misbehavior.

31

There are some difficulties with the buck method I realize, but then again show me a discipline system that’s flawless. I know many teacher’s who have done such a system with success. I think it turns discipline into something more positive.

I don’t know if I agree with Gary T’s assessment though of lending buck’s being pyschologically damaging. How is it any different from when I get a parking ticket? Or if I show up late for work and my hours are reduced? The bucks are a privelege, not an expectation. Therefore if I take them away, the students are back at being even…not at a deficit. I do agree though that one cannot wait too long until a reward is given, and I’ve been thinking about this. I’m still debating whether I should use this system or a “leadership star system” which is effectively the same thing, only the emphasis is not on buying something. It’s more on earning a priveledge like a movie day, or a guitar day, or a game.

And Hippy, I have to reward them for extra stuff. Really band should have two teachers going on at once because of all the extra stuff happening. Rehearsal time is always at a premium (how many times does band get cancelled for some school event right before a concert?) and so I need extra hands to help with attendence and so forth. As well if a student wants to lead a sectional (helping fellow saxophones out) that can take a great deal off of my shoulders while I help the clarinets.

I have found though that pacing is the ultimate disciplinary weapon. Someone mentioned earlier to keep them busy. Of course it’s impossible to keep everyone going all the time. It’s tough to find fellow band teachers to talk to about this, most don’t have a system (or an effective one in my eyes).

32

I thought my first teaching position was going to include adoring special education 3rd graders sitting cross legged with me on bits of carpet. I think I even saw myself playing guitar. In reality, I don’t play guitar and my first job was in the Bronx teaching teenagers who had been expelled from their districts for weapons possesion or extreme violence. I learned more in that first year about classroom management than most veteran teachers ever know.

If you’re really interested in the topic I highly recommend theDiscipline with Dignity series of books by Curwin and Mendler. It’s not at all a touchy-feely approach to classroom management and I can honestly say their philosophy is the only reason I was able to continue teaching this challenging population with any measure of success while maintaining my own sanity.

I agree, except for the PRETEND part. In reality, behavior is always about choices and students are free to make any behavior choices they please. Once teachers accept that fact, classroom management becomes a little easier. Our job is always to clarify the behavior options available while making sure each individual knows exactly what the consequences (positive and negative) are for each choice. Luckily, around 80% of students in the general population are likely to make wise choices without much intervention from us aside from reminders and warnings. Another 15% will probably need disciplinary action, and some more than once. That leaves the 5% who will, for one reason or another, choose antisocial behaviors regardless of the consequences and actions of authority figures. Simply knowing this will often make these incorrigibles easier to handle in the classroom setting.

Allow students to keep their dignity by never backing them into a position in which they feel they must flex their muscles. This may mean backing down from a blossoming power struggle (something few people are able to do gracefully without conscious effort and practice) and saving the confrontation for later when the student can get both barrels without feeling the need to save face in front of his buddies. I used to keep a stack of index cards on which I had written words or short phrases that I could drop on a kid’s desk for private reminders and warnings. Included were “knock it off”, “get rid of it”, and “I’ll see you after class”. The stack also contained cards with words of encouragement and praise written on them. These sentiments are often just as difficult to receive as admonishment for kids in a public forum of their badass peers . The exchange happened privately in a room full of people and no one had to know which flavor the kid had gotten.

Many of my techniques would appear soft or weak to a casual observer, but through consistent enforcement with an emphasis on upholding the overarching principles from which each rule was suspended I quickly gained the reputation of a teacher with whom one did not f*ck. I was sure to nurture that reputation in the principal’s office as well. In short, I’ll do everything in my power to keep these kids in my classroom, but if one shows up on your bench it’s because his ass is seriously grass.

I’ll share a tip for dealing with alphas: Call the house one evening and ask to speak to him…not his parents. Him. You have now changed the script, and if you’ve taught for any time at all, you know how maddeningly rigid the script can be. You’ve also opened up a space for a new relationship to grow between you. Talk about problems you notice in the classroom and ask him what he thinks he could do to help you fix them.

33

One more thing: One of the smartest things I ever did as a beginning teacher was keep a 3X5 card in my shirt pocket. Whenever I was about to blow my top at some student, I’d take it out and read it. Then I’d deal with the student. Finally, the last day of class, a habitually troublesome student asked me what was on the card. I showed him. It said “Lighten up…you’re being an asshole!”

He just about busted a gut laughing as he walked out of the room, and has kept in touch over the last 20 years. He’s a lawyer now.

34

[bold]Quasimodal[/bold] I would caution you away from token reward systems unless you are dealing with a specific and insular population. They can be marginally successful with really young kids who are at a stage in their moral development where they actually need tangible, external rewards for good behavior, but once they reach middle school it’s more appropriate for us to expect them to choose good behaviors for more internal reasons. I tend to think our goal should always be to move kids toward personal responsibility and away from “what’s in it for me?” motivations.

35

[QUOTE=Quasimodal]
I don’t know if I agree with Gary T’s assessment though of lending buck’s being pyschologically damaging.
[/quote]

Not pyschologically damaging. Psychologically self-defeating, in that a reward that can evaporate has a nebulous quality to it. Why try hard to do good, when a slip-up can undo the benefit?

Getting a parking ticket and having to pay a fine has nothing to do with going to work and earning money with which to pay said fine. Now, if your employer docked you for parking in the wrong space at work, it would be an analagous situation. How many employers do that? How many employees would stand for it?

That’s being denied an opportunity for future compensation. It’s quite different from having what you’ve already earned repossessed. In fact, it illustrates one option for consequences for misbehavior - loss of privilege to earn band bucks for X number of days.

I’m just saying that if you’re going to give them something, that something should be irrevocably theirs from the moment it’s given. Whatever consequences they may face for negative actions should not include removing what they have ALREADY acquired. If they can’t count on seeing the fruits of the band bucks they’ve already earned, the appeal of earning them will be diminished.

Which raises the question, what is the punishment for students who haven’t earned any band bucks? If there’s no punishment, that’s quite unfair, and there’s nothing to lose by misbehaving so long as one hasn’t done anything positive to get band bucks. If there is some punishment, why not apply that evenly to all, whether or not they have band bucks, and let the ones who have the bucks keep them?

36

[QUOTE=Gary T]
Not pyschologically damaging. Psychologically self-defeating, in that a reward that can evaporate has a nebulous quality to it. Why try hard to do good, when a slip-up can undo the benefit?
Getting a parking ticket and having to pay a fine has nothing to do with going to work and earning money with which to pay said fine. Now, if your employer docked you for parking in the wrong space at work, it would be an analagous situation. How many employers do that? How many employees would stand for it?
That’s being denied an opportunity for future compensation. It’s quite different from having what you’ve already earned repossessed. In fact, it illustrates one option for consequences for misbehavior - loss of privilege to earn band bucks for X number of days.

I’m just saying that if you’re going to give them something, that something should be irrevocably theirs from the moment it’s given. Whatever consequences they may face for negative actions should not include removing what they have ALREADY acquired. If they can’t count on seeing the fruits of the band bucks they’ve already earned, the appeal of earning them will be diminished.
Which raises the question, what is the punishment for students who haven’t earned any band bucks? If there’s no punishment, that’s quite unfair, and there’s nothing to lose by misbehaving so long as one hasn’t done anything positive to get band bucks. If there is some punishment, why not apply that evenly to all, whether or not they have band bucks, and let the ones who have the bucks keep them?
[/QUOTE]

I suppose I should clarify further. Bucks are more of a reward for going the extra mile. If a student is generally quiet throughout class, he is not going to earn a buck, but if he helps lead the class in a warm up he will earn one. Of course the only way he is going to get that oppurtunity is if I feel he is ready. A student who works hard will get the oppurtunity so, the buck system goes down the very beginnings of good behaviour.

As for punishments, I generally think if they have robbed me of teaching time, I will rob them of recess time. We can spend the time together at recess working on some aspect of playing. Before this though, I will give a verbal reminder, relocate them in the room, and so forth.

Still for the giving thing…let me give a better example. If you bring a set of books for students to use out of your home to the class, and they begin to trash them, are you going to leave them in the room? No, you’re going to save your books and take them back home! Have you ever had students talk during a movie and threaten to turn it off unless they be good? Wouldn’t both of these examples constitute taking back something you have given? If I am going to spend money on prizes for my students, it is in fact my money. Yes maybe I am giving them a “loan” per se (band loans doesn’t have the same ring to it), but the fact remains if they want to earn a prize they have to be deserving. I don’t see what the problem is here if they are told about this at the beginning. Yes certain behaviours are expected, and that will be true in my classroom. But do we want to merely emphasize the negative behaviours without showcasing students who model good behaviour by themselves for others? Why can’t we make good students an example for others to follow? Seriously, some kids need extra help in the area of self discipline.

As well you say why try hard to do well when a slip up can out do the benefit? Well I say, if they slip up they have a chance to regain what they earned! It’s not like if they take 20 days to earn 20 band bucks, and they slip up bad once that I’m going to take away all 20. And if they lose some, they can earn them back again.

37

Quasimodal, I think perhaps you’re looking at “going the extra mile” the wrong way. It’s the things you’ve mentioned - leading band at warm-up, taking attendance, etc. - that are themselves the “reward” when you’re in sixth grade. Tough talking or not, that age loves to help out, and if you approach it that the “fantastic kid of today” is ALLOWED to take attendance, you’ve made good behavior its own reward - literally.

I’d turn the whole system around, take away the bucks, and simply say things like, “Jane, I like how neatly your case is stowed under your seat.” “Tim, great job with that last piece, that was a tough one!” You don’t even have to tally it. You’ll know who’s being a knockout. The kids will know what you’re looking for. At the end of the week, when it’s still fresh in everyone’s mind, announce that Jane will be the warm-up leader for all of next week, and Tim gets to take attendance. Then, at the end of the following week, pick out two more stand-outs. (Or change it bi-weekly, or daily, or whatever works for you.)

They’ll be fighting to be good.

The other thing my mom does is occasionally throw out Jolly Ranchers as random rewards. Not often enough that they’re expected or begged for, but once in a while, you’ll do something good and get pegged in the head with a yummy treat. (Her aim is still awful, after all these years.)

Remember, intermitent reward cycles are actually more effective than a reward every single time.

38

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Quasimodal, I think perhaps you’re looking at “going the extra mile” the wrong way. It’s the things you’ve mentioned - leading band at warm-up, taking attendance, etc. - that are themselves the “reward” when you’re in sixth grade. Tough talking or not, that age loves to help out, and if you approach it that the “fantastic kid of today” is ALLOWED to take attendance, you’ve made good behavior its own reward - literally.

I’d turn the whole system around, take away the bucks, and simply say things like, “Jane, I like how neatly your case is stowed under your seat.” “Tim, great job with that last piece, that was a tough one!” You don’t even have to tally it. You’ll know who’s being a knockout. The kids will know what you’re looking for. At the end of the week, when it’s still fresh in everyone’s mind, announce that Jane will be the warm-up leader for all of next week, and Tim gets to take attendance. Then, at the end of the following week, pick out two more stand-outs. (Or change it bi-weekly, or daily, or whatever works for you.)

They’ll be fighting to be good.

The other thing my mom does is occasionally throw out Jolly Ranchers as random rewards. Not often enough that they’re expected or begged for, but once in a while, you’ll do something good and get pegged in the head with a yummy treat. (Her aim is still awful, after all these years.)

Remember, intermitent reward cycles are actually more effective than a reward every single time.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll take all your advice under consideration, though I still think there will be students who adopt a “who cares” attitude to leading a warm up or taking attendence. I mean if I were in grade 6, I know I wouldn’t have wanted to do either despite the good it would have done me(I was a “bad” kid who wouldn’t do a shred of work if I didn’t have to). An extra reward can help motivate them, and if the task is enjoyable then it’s a double bonus. I like the idea of weekly helpers though, I was originally thinking monthly helpers, but that may be too long of a time to wait.

The only conclusion I’ve reached in the matter of classroom discipline is that everyone finds their own way and makes it work for them…that’s why university courses in this area teach you nothing! Hell, we haven’t found a discipline program for society yet that is 100% effective. A discipline program has to be adapted for the needs of the students, which vary from school to school, class to class, etc.

39

[QUOTE=Quasimodal]
I’ll take all your advice under consideration, though I still think there will be students who adopt a “who cares” attitude to leading a warm up or taking attendence. I mean if I were in grade 6, I know I wouldn’t have wanted to do either despite the good it would have done me(I was a “bad” kid who wouldn’t do a shred of work if I didn’t have to). An extra reward can help motivate them, and if the task is enjoyable then it’s a double bonus. I like the idea of weekly helpers though, I was originally thinking monthly helpers, but that may be too long of a time to wait.

The only conclusion I’ve reached in the matter of classroom discipline is that everyone finds their own way and makes it work for them…that’s why university courses in this area teach you nothing! Hell, we haven’t found a discipline program for society yet that is 100% effective. A discipline program has to be adapted for the needs of the students, which vary from school to school, class to class, etc.
[/QUOTE]

You’re going to be a good teacher… everything that’s said here, that’s through our own personal lenses and experiences. This could be the system that works for you and your kids - so go for it! Just be willing to adapt and adjust on the fly; if it’s not working, fix it.