# How do you make trains and buses run on time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597 "2012-06-09T07:39:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/21 "2012-06-10T13:58:55Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > 1. the tendency of some (many) drivers to run their own schedule when they aren’t being closely watched. That is, they take more break time than the schedule allows, or they stop at unauthorized places in order to get food or meet people, or they don’t service parts of the route that they are supposed to. So can’t you use GPS to prevent this from happening when you don’t have inspectors in the field? One thing that slows down the buses in L.A. is that their schedule is based on “normal” passenger load. That means that the schedule doesn’t take into account a wheelchair passenger. When you get someone in a wheelchair, the driver has to clear a space for it, tell everyone to step aside while the ramp is lowering, and then fasten the wheelchair for safety reasons. It really slows things down. And wheelchairs are really common. In a way, we should be thankful that they even accept wheelchairs. I think some of those “punctual” countries don’t. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/22 "2012-06-10T14:09:47Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > I agree. Writing from Japan, if a bus driver tried something like that here, it would be so unthinkable as to likely make for a newspaper headline. If this was in Osaka, you’d probably have the (famous) mayor blow a gasket on tv and it would start a national debate about how the country is going straight to hell. Well, in my home-town, the bus system is quite good, but we do have a little of this sort of thing happening, and as long as it’s only little, being Canadians and reasonably nice, we don’t kick up much of a fuss. The quintessential example being this: Along his regular route, at a regular stop or possibly between two stops close to a Tim Horton’s coffee shop, the driver puts on his four-way flashers, gets out of the bus, (closing the doors behind him,) and goes inside for a few minutes. You don’t really ask about why. Maybe he REALLY NEEDS an emergency bathroom break. Maybe he needs (less intensely, one would hope,) a drinkable source of caffeine to stay alert on the road. Or maybe he’s just hungry and is ordering a sandwich. I also remember one time that a Burlington transit bus was five minutes late leaving downtown. I didn’t ask why - the driver was there, maybe he’d been asked to wait for passengers transferring from some other bus that would be late arriving. But that made the bus I was on late enough that I didn’t catch the GO train I wanted, and had to wait a full hour for the next one. I went back to the bus platform and told the driver a little of how I felt about that. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/23 "2012-06-10T15:29:08Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > I agree. Writing from Japan, … > > Despite being a seemingly impossibly complex system, it works out great. I spent a week in Tokyo last year for work, and had to commute out to Yokohama each day. I was seriously impressed at how well it all worked. And the sheer scale. This especially in the light of the power restrictions in place, but even more so when one thinks that Japan has not been enjoying great economic times for a while now. But they keep it all very well maintained and efficient. Just how much Japan depends upon the system is clear, so one could say they have no choice, but it remains a major achievement. The foresight decades ago that went into building the system was also very impressive. This came from an era of true statesman politicians and mangers. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/24 "2012-06-10T15:58:01Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Subway trains and above ground trams are a different story; they’re not usually as on-time as the other sorts of trains- they have to deal with variable numbers of people getting on and off, and in the case of trams, usually have to deal with traffic as well. The subways and trams I’ve ridden in Europe use a slightly different fare mechanism than we do in the U.S. You don’t need to show anyone a ticket to get on. There are no turnstiles in the subway stations. (Might have been in Paris, don’t remember for sure.) That doesn’t mean it’s free. There are teams of inspectors who travel on the systems and you have to show them a valid ticket when asked, or they will issue a fine (which is much higher than the cost of a ticket, of course). The upshot is that when a tram gets to a stop, the driver opens all the doors. You don’t have to line up, single-file, to go past the driver and the farebox. People get off and on, and the tram is rolling again in a few seconds. It seemed like such an odd way of doing things when I first learned of it, but I bet it speeds things up a hell of a lot. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Related to what’s already been said: > > Density has a lot to do with it. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t trains commonly used by most strata in Japan and Germany? Public transit tends to make the most sense and be used by a greater portion of the population as density goes up. > > In contrast, in the US, buses are often used by lower income people. Services for the poor and people with few other options tend to be of low quality. I think there are a couple of historical differences between Germany and the U.S. that come into play. A lot of the infrastructure in Germany is newer, having been rebuilt (for obvious reasons) from the late '40s onward. Boston’s earliest subway was built in 1895 and that tunnel is still in use. Germany had the advantage of 50 years more experience in how to design things, and their facilities have 50 years less wear-and-tear on them. And from what I’ve heard, Germany doesn’t have the same demographic and geographic shifts we have. In a sense, we’re a young country and the population isn’t settled. Cities in the U.S. seem to be either rapidly growing or rapidly shrinking. We have lots of immigrants, and people will readily move from one city to another. I don’t think either of those happen to quite such an extent in Germany. I just didn’t see the same signs of rapid growth, gridlocked freeways and sprawling suburbs, there that I do here. Which, to get back to the subject at hand, makes it easier manage infrastructure needs, predict usage and traffic, and schedule things like trains and buses. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/25 "2012-06-10T16:08:02Z")
> [@Rampant\_Coypu](#): > > The light rail system will be 4x larger in a year and a half and there will be more commuter rail out to the districts that tried to mess with the light rail within two years. > > We really need a subway, and their are plans for a couple of underground routes, but that’s pretty hard to do in sand and clay soil at 40ft above sea level in a hurricane zone. The toy train that runs up and down Main is a miserable failure. The only thing it has really succeeded in doing is showing that the gang of boneheaded baboons that runs Metro really missed the boat by not establishing a monorail. If they had done that, the trains wouldn’t keep [hitting cars](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc) and running over pedestrians. Hell, they even [run into Metro buses](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_mum8-DOpQ). ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/26 "2012-06-11T03:53:39Z")
Basically: Trains running on time = Soshul-izm!!! ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/27 "2012-06-11T04:22:57Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Basically: > > Trains running on time = Soshul-izm!!! Are you saying that Japan (where, as has already been said, the trains are privately owned and run) is a socialist paradise? ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/28 "2012-06-11T05:20:06Z")
Don’t confuse totalitarian governments with socialism. WRT Japan, the post war railways were government owned until privatised in 1987. The major rebuilding and modernisation of the railways was for the most part done under government control. One thing to consider, the Shinkansen (aka Bullet Train) was developed in the late 50’s and saw its first service in 1964. The value of this extraordinary of foresight is hard to comprehend. The Japanese were literally decades ahead of the pack. Railways are probably a perfect study in the interplay between government and private ownership. Railways, by their nature need significant government support. Eminent domain being somewhere near the top of the list of things only a government can do. Long term investment that is way beyond any corporation’s horizon too. But history also shows that governments agencies get complacent and ossified, and subject to political influence. Pork barrel politics (aka bridges to nowhere) can wreck things. So there is a point where privatising is a good thing. But getting the balance right so infrastructure is maintained and improved is hard. Time will tell how well the Japanese system succeeds. But of any country on the planet, if any really gets trains, it is the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/29 "2012-06-11T05:38:29Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Are you saying that Japan (where, as has already been said, the trains are privately owned and run) is a socialist paradise? I’m saying that here in the U.S. adequate money, planning, and time will never be spent to have a mass-transit system as reliable and useful as the ones in Japan and Europe. Because “I GOT MINE!!!1” In this case that means: _“I got my car… no gummint ain’t gonna steal any more of my money just to have buses and trains take people, who are to lazy to work to buy a car, where they need to go, when they need to, on time and in comfort!!.. over my dead body!!”_ Countries that have good public transit–I mean _really_ good, like Japan–just have to be Socialist. Don’t you see? Thank God for The Land of the Free! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/30 "2012-06-11T06:15:06Z")
> [@skdo23](#): > > I hear that Italian trains aren’t nearly as punctual today as they were in the 1930s, and yet most Italians that I’ve talked to don’t seem to mind. 😃 They weren’t actually that punctual back then, either. But under Mussolini, it was ‘unhealthy’ for stationmasters to record the train as late, or for passengers to complain about lateness. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/31 "2012-06-11T10:40:16Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > gridlocked freeways and sprawling suburbs, there that I do here. The gridlocked freeways are partly due to too many people in cars, partly due to not enough alternative routes. Other countries’ governments response to “traffic increases” is “add a bus”; yours is…? I don’t know, but in many cities it doesn’t involve public transportation. As for the sprawl, yes, that’s more common in the Americas and Australia (that is, in places with low population densities) than in those countries where the good land has been densely occupied for milennia; it is also one of the reasons why public transportation makes less sense there, but it’s a vicious circle: there’s sprawls so there’s no buses so nobody will use “close to the bus which takes me to work” as a reason to choose a home over another so housing spreads more so… Spain’s construction bubble involved a move from vertical to horizontal housing, but I’m talking about having the same 90m[sup]2[/sup] or 120m[sup]2[/sup] as rowhouses rather than as flats: it still takes a lot less space than American style, American size housing. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/32 "2012-06-13T02:38:21Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > How awesome that we do seem to have an expert for _everything_. > > The idea of a bus driver going off route to visit a restaurant or taking an unscheduled break is so foreign to me that I have some trouble believing that this is happening in an industrialized nation. Are we talking city buses that run every 30 minutes or rather Greyhound style travel coaches? How would the passengers in a bus not keep the bus driver from going off course? I suppose they also might want to get out at a stop that the bus driver isn’t servicing. City buses. They generally don’t do it with passengers on board. But if it’s one or two passengers they’re friendly with, they might. The most common times for this to happen are on the pull out to the starting point at the start of the shift, and moving between one bus route and another. GPS does make the more egregious off-route violations hard to pull off these days. Minor deviations will usually be excused, though. It’s also possible to be on route, as far as the GPS is concerned, but not really be keeping the schedule. Say the schedule requires you to do a loop at the end, and then take your break. You get a longer break if you don’t make the loop. Or you stop in the middle of the loop, talk to your buddy, and start ten minutes late. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/33 "2012-06-13T02:42:17Z")
> [@Cub\_Mistress](#): > > My late brother-in-law drove a city bus for a couple of years. He would smoke a joint on his break sometimes and after that, the bus might go anywhere. Maybe on his route, maybe not. One memorable afternoon, he wound up some 15 miles off course, cruising through a rich neighborhood. According to him, his passengers enjoyed their tour looking at the fine houses. He got busted because the rich people objected to the bus in their neighborhood. BTW, his punishment for this was a 3 day suspension. A lot of senior drivers have stories about wild times in the old days. Before GPS, before drug testing, before cameras inside and outside of most buses, before citizens with cell phones to call in problems right away. Tough to get away with that these days. Every once in a while, someone will get busted meeting their paramour at the end of the line and using the back seat as a love seat. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/34 "2012-06-13T02:50:45Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > So can’t you use GPS to prevent this from happening when you don’t have inspectors in the field? > > One thing that slows down the buses in L.A. is that their schedule is based on “normal” passenger load. That means that the schedule doesn’t take into account a wheelchair passenger. When you get someone in a wheelchair, the driver has to clear a space for it, tell everyone to step aside while the ramp is lowering, and then fasten the wheelchair for safety reasons. It really slows things down. > > And wheelchairs are really common. In a way, we should be thankful that they even accept wheelchairs. I think some of those “punctual” countries don’t. GPS does stop the more egregious violations. Pull outs to the starting point and moving between bus routes still allow for some shenanigans. Generally, drivers must be witnessed breaking the rules by supervisors, or be caught on tape, to be penalized. The extra time required to load wheelchairs is supposed to show up in our analysis. In practice, the data points from trips with wheelchairs tend to be regarded as outliers, atypical to the day to day performance. So some time is added in, but not enough. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/35 "2012-06-13T04:57:44Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The toy train that runs up and down Main is a miserable failure. The only thing it has really succeeded in doing is showing that the gang of boneheaded baboons that runs Metro really missed the boat by not establishing a monorail. If they had done that, the trains wouldn’t keep [hitting cars](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc) and running over pedestrians. Hell, they even [run into Metro buses](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_mum8-DOpQ). Local folks are learning not to mess with that shit. And it’s still the most heavily used per mile LR system in the US. Watch that go up once the Harrisburg and Scott lines open in just over a year. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/36 "2012-06-16T21:59:15Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The toy train that runs up and down Main is a miserable failure. The only thing it has really succeeded in doing is showing that the gang of boneheaded baboons that runs Metro really missed the boat by not establishing a monorail. If they had done that, the trains wouldn’t keep [hitting cars](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc) and running over pedestrians. Hell, they even [run into Metro buses](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_mum8-DOpQ). Well, sir, there’s nothin’ on earth like a genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail! What’d I say? Monorail! What’s it called? Monorail! That’s right, Monorail! ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/37 "2012-06-16T22:22:56Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > They weren’t actually that punctual back then, either. > But under Mussolini, it was ‘unhealthy’ for stationmasters to record the train as late, or for passengers to complain about lateness. [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp) has an 'article on Mussolini’s boast that the Fascists made the trains run on time. I excerpt: > [@](#): > > Mussolini needed to convince the people of Italy that fascism was indeed a system that worked to their benefit. Thus was born the myth of fascist efficiency, with the train as its symbol. The word was spread that Mussolini had turned the dilapidated Italian railway system into one that was the envy of all Europe, featuring trains that were both dependable and punctual. In Mussolini’s Italy, all the trains ran on time. > > Well, not quite. The Italian railway system had fallen into a rather sad state during World War I, and it did improve a good deal during the 1920s, but Mussolini was disingenuous in taking credit for the changes: much of the repair work had been performed before Mussolini and the fascists came to power in 1922. More importantly (to the claim at hand), those who actually lived in Italy during the Mussolini era have borne testimony that the Italian railway’s legendary adherence to timetables was far more myth than reality. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597/38 "2012-06-16T22:48:36Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > So can’t you use GPS to prevent this from happening when you don’t have inspectors in the field? > > One thing that slows down the buses in L.A. is that their schedule is based on “normal” passenger load. That means that the schedule doesn’t take into account a wheelchair passenger. When you get someone in a wheelchair, the driver has to clear a space for it, tell everyone to step aside while the ramp is lowering, and then fasten the wheelchair for safety reasons. It really slows things down. Based on what I’ve seen the task of securing the passenger’s wheelchair on boarding only takes a few seconds; OTOH the mechanism that extends and retracts the ramp is terribly slow, for those who haven’t seen it. Someone does need to come up with a faster machine. > [@](#): > > And wheelchairs are really common. In a way, we should be thankful that they even accept wheelchairs. I think some of those “punctual” countries don’t. On the plus side, some cities in these countries are so abundantly provided with rail transit lines that the bus system is a very minor part of the overall mass transit system. Rail stations are much more likely to have level platforms for boarding so wheelchair users can board the same way as other passengers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-make-trains-and-buses-run-on-time/624597.md?page=1)