# How do you move to a foreign country and never learn to speak their language... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 13, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097 "2018-05-13T19:29:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/41 "2018-05-14T21:36:45Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > My relatives didn’t come home here for the culture. They came here to escape the evils of 20th Century Europe. This. For those who were fleeing religious or political persecution it was enough that the host country just left them the hell alone. ---
**Author:** ![Novalyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@Novalyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novalyne)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/42 "2018-05-15T02:17:01Z")
I’m on year 5 living and working in Costa Rica. Before moving here, I assumed I would be fluent within a year or two. The reality is otherwise - I do okay in touristy-type situations, speaking the basics. I can muddle through, say, a conversation with my dog’s vet, who luckily understands a little English so that we can communicate together in a Spanish-English mish-mash. But in-depth conversations? Can’t do it. And here’s why: 1. Work - I work in an American school, where students and faculty speak English. So most of my day, I hear very little Spanish. 2. Out in public - taxi drivers? They usually want to practice their English with the gringa, which is fair - I might be their only English-speaking fare that day. And even when speaking in Spanish, it’s always the same basic conversation (yes, I love Costa Rica, and here’s why…I come from the US, I’m a teacher, etc.), so not much progress there. This is not a culture where you strike up a casual conversation at the checkout counter or standing in line with strangers. 3. Social life - I’m a huge introvert, and the majority of my social energy is spent at school. I don’t hang out too much (with either English speakers or Spanish speakers). And I’m out in the suburbs, so it’s hard to find meet-ups or groups to specifically practice Spanish. 4. Classes? My school offers them - once a week, after school, on a day when I have mandatory meetings, so that’s a no-go. Private lessons are hugely expensive and I just don’t have the money. Yeah, I’ve done some independent learning but it’s not the same as having real-world conversations. And at the end of the day - I’m tired, which is the worst time to try learning. In fact, it’s inversely proportionate - the more tired I am, the more Spanish I forget. On really bad days, it’s super frustrating, because I can’t seem to string three words together to make a simple sentence. Usually I can muddle through basic things, like conducting a bank transfer or working with the cable guy. I’m embarassed by my lack of Spanish. But…it’s just really, really hard. Much harder than I ever thought it would be. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/43 "2018-05-15T04:56:15Z")
Random memory…you marry someone from another country. Do you try to learn their language while they’re trying to learn yours? I had a friend who insisted his wife take English language classes when they got married. I told him that he should classes in her native language to show support of her effort. She spoke with a moderate accent and definitely understandable, he didn’t speak in her language at all. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/44 "2018-05-16T01:09:20Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > We moved to the Netherlands when I was a kid, and my English-speaking mother struggled to learn the language. She took classes, and even had a tutor for a while, but she never got really fluent. I think it’s partly because it’s harder to learn a language when you are older and also because she didn’t go to work or school, so she didn’t have the same amount of contact hours as we kids did. We didn’t live in an enclave, but she did have mostly English-speaking friends. I tried (and had _some_ success) learning Dutch when I lived there for a short time. But it is difficult to really immerse yourself in Dutch language in the Netherlands because almost everyone there–especially in the [Randstad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randstad)–speaks English better than most Americans. You can ask them to only speak Dutch with you but that breaks down quickly if you (the non-Dutch speaker) have so little Dutch that even simple conversations are nearly impossible. I used to speak with 3-5 year-olds a lot because I was close to their level of proficiency. Certainly different than talking to adults. My wee Dutch coversation-partners and I earnestly established things like: **“Nee, dat is niet _mijn_ moeder, zij is _uw_ moeder.”** _No, that is not my mother, she is your mother_ **“Ik wil ook een broodje kaas.”** _I also want a cheese sandwich_ **“Ja, je hond is de beste hond.”** _Yes, your dog is the best dog_ Yes, I know that is not the best Dutch. That’s the point. It’s about as good as I got. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/45 "2018-05-16T01:41:22Z")
I find when I’m trying to brush up on Mandarin, little kids are best to talk with, because their vocabularies are smaller and the tones somewhat accented compared to adults. Most kids are shocked to hear me speak Chinese, because in America they almost never encounter an American who can speak Chinese. The weirdest language situation I was in was when I worked in Japan. Because of my background in Chinese, I could read a lot of Kanji and learn it very quickly, but often it was the case that I knew the meaning, but not the Japanese pronunciation. This led to the very strange experience of being semi-literate in a language I could speak very little of. My wife was the same way. We had studied Chinese for years. All our Japanese colleagues were amazed that we could read restaurant menus and schedules and such, but not know how to pronounce the words we were reading (and understanding!). We could tell them in English what we were reading, but not Japanese. By the end of a year, though, we could speak Japanese well enough to get by in our day-to-day lives. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/46 "2018-05-16T07:18:25Z")
> [@Arrendajo](#): > > This led to the very strange experience of being semi-literate in a language I could speak very little of. A lot of second-language speakers feel like that about French or, sorry guys - English 🙂 It was quite interesting when we started getting Romanians in World of Warcraft’s European servers: most of us had taken English lessons but watched English-language media either dubbed or subtitled; they had not taken English lessons and had force-learned English from media. We could write it well, weren’t so sure on the pronunciations; they pronounced it just fine, spelled in ways quite unrelated to the dictionary. Re. learning your SOs language. The Littlest Nephew is from Bulgaria. His parents want him to know those roots, learn the language… I thought they were overdoing it, but what the heck, kids in Spain nowadays are all supposed to end up more or less tri- or tetra-lingual, may as well make one of those the language of his birth. They’ve been involved in starting a local Bulgarian-language school; kid goes to class Saturday mornings with tadpoles of a similar size, his dad goes in the afternoon (the mom can’t, she works on Saturdays). Most of my brother’s classmates are SOs or in-laws of Bulgarian citizens; the classes have only been on for a couple of months and they’re getting new people pretty much every week. I thought that was pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/47 "2018-05-16T13:19:58Z")
In the late 90s-early 00s, I used to teach French as a foreign language. All of the students were expats, mainly from the US, UK or Scandinavia. A good three-quarters were women in their 30s who’d left good jobs back home to follow their husbands. One of my students was an African-American woman, a bit older than the others. She was highly educated, very friendly and open-minded, interesting to talk to but she struggled with the language. Still, she attended class regularly and was clearly eager to learn and make progress. She once told me that when she complained to friends about her slow progress, they’d make fun of her for even bothering to learn French. “Everybody speaks English here. And when they don’t, just find someone else”. According to her, these people had lived here for 10-20 years. So, yeah, this attitude is widespread. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/48 "2018-05-16T14:03:00Z")
I encountered that from time to time in my study of language, both from friends and even complete strangers “Why bother to learn X, everyone else speaks English already?” “Why do you need X?” Also: “You’re too old to learn another language.” “Why bother? You’ll never be fluent.” A big part of learning another language is a willingness to make mistakes. Yes, you will mangle the language at first but if you don’t go through that stage you’ll never get further. MOST people are happy you’re making some effort (some, of course, are dicks). I had a couple conversations in France that involved “Thank you so much for making the effort, but my English is better than your French so let’s move to that”. I also discovered that quite a few people didn’t know English so my mangled French was the only means to communicate with them. People afraid to make mistakes don’t use their budding language skills and tend to progress less. I also learned you don’t need to be fluent or perfect to be understood and have a useful command of a language. Yes, my spoken French is far from perfect and I’ll always have the heavy American accent. So what? My English isn’t always perfect and I’ll also always have a heavy American accent when I’m speaking my native tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/49 "2018-05-16T15:11:15Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > I was involved in a Canadian government immigration study in the late 70s, which concluded, amongst other findings, that most first generation immigrants to Canada never fully assimilated. This applied to ALL immigrants, **including those from the US** and the UK, whose lack of assimilation was masked by their cultural and language similarities to Canadians. What’s the definition of “assimilation” in the emphasized context, though? I can understand that someone from the UK might have a hard time with acculturation, but when considering a typical American, acculturation and assimilation are surely synonymous, aren’t they? I’m genuinely curious, especially as an American who lived more than a year in Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/50 "2018-05-16T16:22:57Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I lived in Latin America and learned quite a bit of Spanish. I have lived in Saudi Arabia for twenty years and have learned almost no Arabic. Apparently, I learn languages in bed. Nobody actually speaks or reads Arabic. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/51 "2018-05-16T16:38:34Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …It \*can \*be strengthened by factors such as having your job or wealth enable you to always have attendants and translators, or having a strong enough support network of people who DO communicate that you need not go outside it, to a dominant ethnocultural environment where the “outsider” will remain treated as one forever no matter what. … I’ve tutored a few adult English language learners - all Mexican, and this is my experience. If they are working - generally the men, they are quite aware of American culture, and they can understand quite a bit in terms of SIMPLE writing or speaking. Probably test around a 5th-6th grade equivalency in reading/writing. But they are VERY limited at speed, and anything beyond the most basic grammar rules. Tenses and some pronunciations are VERY difficult. The problem is that to get beyond that level of “pidgin” reading/writing/speaking/understanding - takes PROTRACTED HARD WORK. Most of the folk I’ve worked with have been working very hard just to make ends meet. They don’t have a ton of free time to do work sheets, daily reading, etc. I often find it frustrating, because with young kids in school, you would think they would have the perfect situation to learn along with their kids - but IME, it is the exceptional student who puts forth that effort. I always tell them - why not go to the English mass? You’re going to church anyways, and you KNOW what they are saying for most of the service. But their friends all go to the Spanish language services… If someone is not working - IM limited E generally wives, they can remain essentially illiterate in English. All of their friends/family will communicate with them in Spanish. Here in the western burbs of Chicago, there are large geographical areas where someone could use Spanish exclusively for all of their shopping, dr. appointments, church, etc. I have found it an interesting exercise trying to identify the challenges to an individual becoming more literate, their most pressing needs, etc. Personally, I could not imagine going to a new country and not working to attain some considerable facility with the country’s language. I’ve also been surprised at the number of Spanish language apps my students use, to enable them to avoid becoming more proficient in English. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/52 "2018-05-17T06:01:31Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I always tell them - why not go to the English mass? You’re going to church anyways, and you KNOW what they are saying for most of the service. But their friends all go to the Spanish language services… Whether I can understand Mass in English or not depends on the congregation. I’ve been lucky with Jesuits (mostly) and Franciscans (so far always), but I swear whichever Bible and Missal the Augustins in my first parish used was in pre-Shakespearian English. Secular priests have been hit-or-miss. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/53 "2018-05-17T06:10:41Z")
Out of time: Spanish translations of the Bible often use words which are relatively uncommon (for example _alcuza_ where nowadays most people would say _aceitera_, for an oil dispensing bottle), but in general the grammar is normal. Now let’s take a look at something very basic and which gets recited in every Mass: the Lord’s Prayer. In Spanish, it uses the _tú/vos_ mode of address, which is the one most commonly used in everyday speech, in every country. In English it uses the equivalent _thou_… which ok, it’s equivalent in being the buddy-buddy form, but not-equivalent in that it was the buddy-buddy form back when people used it outside of Mass; today, nobody uses it outside of Mass and Thor comic books. All of Mass is like that: words and grammar which aren’t everyday use at all. Even the most basic prayers need a much higher level of English than your students have. In French, Portuguese or Italian, Mass helps me, because my comprehension level is already high; I only need to deduce from context between 1 in 10 (French) and 1 in 300 words (Italian). But in English? I find myself wishing for Latin back… that one I’d probably understand! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/54 "2018-05-17T13:30:07Z")
I don’t understand it at all, and I encounter it every day at work. But what really pisses me off is people who don’t speak or understand English, who tell me they shouldn’t have to speak or understand English, but then telling me I should have to speak and understand their language. Hypocrisy supreme. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/55 "2018-05-17T13:51:53Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Whether I can understand Mass in English or not depends on the congregation. I’ve been lucky with Jesuits (mostly) and Franciscans (so far always), but I swear whichever Bible and Missal the Augustins in my first parish used was in pre-Shakespearian English. If they were using the St. James Bible it’s actually contemporary with Shakespeare, but I’ll be the first to admit I have no clue if the Augustins would use that particular version. But yeah, if English isn’t your native tongue English from that era would be hard to understand. It’s hard for a lot of contemporary natives speakers as well. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/56 "2018-05-17T13:57:30Z")
I don’t know- even in New Jersey, if everybody in your workplace speaks, say, Esperanto, and all business is conducted in Esperanto, is it really hypocrisy to expect you to conduct yourself in Esperanto as well? It would simply be the norm in that office. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/57 "2018-05-17T14:10:46Z")
When you get fed up with immigrants not speaking our language you can just go off and rant on them like this guy: Twitter crowdsourced the identity of a viral racist in mere hours [https://www.fastcompany.com/40573511/twitter-crowdsourced-the-identity-of-a-viral-racist-in-mere-hours](https://www.fastcompany.com/40573511/twitter-crowdsourced-the-identity-of-a-viral-racist-in-mere-hours) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/58 "2018-05-17T14:35:40Z")
How does ease of language learning vary with age? Obviously toddlers learn fastest, and teenagers will learn much faster than adults, but what about 30-year old vs a 50-year old? I learned Thai when I was in my 30’s; I suspect it would have been much more difficult if I’d waited until my 50’s. Thai is extremely easy, and very fun, to learn. It has a simple lexicon, with many easy to learn compounds (‘patient’ is ‘heart cool’; ‘generous’ is ‘heart good’, etc.), a very simple grammar, and no inflections at all. (I’ll guess that it is much easier for an inflected language (e.g. French) speaker to learn Thai than vice versa.) Yet I’ve met bar owners in Pattaya that seemed perversely proud that they’d spent years in Thailand without learning more than a few phrases! ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/59 "2018-05-17T15:14:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If they were using the St. James Bible it’s actually contemporary with Shakespeare, but I’ll be the first to admit I have no clue if the Augustins would use that particular version. > > But yeah, if English isn’t your native tongue English from that era would be hard to understand. It’s hard for a lot of contemporary natives speakers as well. I’m picturing someone learning English from an old Bible: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee. Bringeth thou forth unto me a pack of Marlboro Lights, nay, seven shall I have, yea even to the eighth.” ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097/60 "2018-05-17T15:14:25Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Thai is extremely easy, and very fun, to learn. It has a simple lexicon, with many easy to learn compounds (‘patient’ is ‘heart cool’; ‘generous’ is ‘heart good’, etc.), a very simple grammar, and no inflections at all. (I’ll guess that it is much easier for an inflected language (e.g. French) speaker to learn Thai than vice versa.) Yet I’ve met bar owners in Pattaya that seemed perversely proud that they’d spent years in Thailand without learning more than a few phrases! Tones. Tones ruin it totally. And, maybe the lack of use of Romanization in writing. When travelling to Pattaya with the lady who is now my wife, she was incredibly good at repeating Thai words correctly (sa wa di ka), whereas the ending of the male version is usually how I felt (like crap). Of course Chinese is her native language, and also tonal. Not being able to repeat things kind of hinders learning! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-move-to-a-foreign-country-and-never-learn-to-speak-their-language/814097.md?page=4)