# How do you piss away 50 billion dollars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2008, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219 "2008-12-15T07:35:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/21 "2008-12-15T19:11:34Z")
I’ve got nothing to add to **Starving Artist** ’s excellent summary in post #4. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/22 "2008-12-16T00:47:41Z")
Seriously, how long until we are on the hook for this? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/23 "2008-12-16T00:54:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The question is how does a $50B ponzi scheme excape an independent audit? Because none are so blind as those who will not see? [I Knew Bernie Madoff Was Cheating–That’s Why I Invested With Him](http://clusterstock.alleyinsider.com/2008/12/i-knew-bernie-madoff-was-cheating--thats-why-i-invested-with-him) > [@](#): > > So why did these smart and skeptical investors keep investing? They, like many Madoff investors, assumed Madoff was somehow illegally trading on information from his market-making business for their benefit. They didn’t consider the possibility that he was clean on that score but running a good old-fashioned Ponzi scheme. They greed was their downfall, or the downfall of the suckers that may end up bailling them out anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/24 "2008-12-16T13:39:12Z")
My husband’s retirement fund lost 120 million dollars in this massacre. He does not yet know if his government will pick up the tab for that, or how he’ll be affected by it. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/25 "2008-12-16T17:34:28Z")
Ok, slight hijack but here is another example of Ponzi Scheme! This “Pigeon King” bilked farmers out of millions on both sides of the US/Can border. > **[UPDATED: Pigeon King goes bankrupt - Farm and Dairy](https://www.farmanddairy.com/news/updated-pigeon-king-goes-bankrupt)** > > Originally posted 6/20/2008 at 11:20 a.m. EST: SALEM, Ohio — What once looked like a high-flying and profitable opportunity — a business sold under the promise to save family farms — has crashed to the ground. Arlan Galbraith filed for bankruptcy on... What I don’t get is why anyone would invest in pigeons! We’re talking pigeons! Hello… Pigeons! Eventually, this guy couldn’t keep up with the payments and the whole thing collapsed. …but pigeons!? The guy must be one hell of a salesman! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/26 "2008-12-16T17:40:34Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Ok, slight hijack but here is another example of Ponzi Scheme! This “Pigeon King” bilked farmers out of millions on both sides of the US/Can border. > > [UPDATED: Pigeon King goes bankrupt - Farm and Dairy](http://www.farmanddairy.com/news/updated-pigeon-king-goes-bankrupt/) > > What I don’t get is why anyone would invest in pigeons! We’re talking pigeons! Hello… Pigeons! > Eventually, this guy couldn’t keep up with the payments and the whole thing collapsed. > > …but pigeons!? The guy must be one hell of a salesman! Wasn’the original Ponzi Scheme about postage stamps? Ponzi claimed to get a 35% return, by buying US pstage stamps, sending them to italy (which converted them to italian stamps0, then redeeming the Ita;lian stamps for cash in the US. The total absurdity didn’t matter-nor did the fact that the Italian governemnt publcly denounced the scheme-Ponzi just kept relling them in! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/27 "2008-12-17T19:39:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As was posted above, the “auditing company” was a joke. I don’t see how this escapes public scrutiny. We’ve already seen large accounting firms disgraced, but this doesn’t even qualify as ridiculous. It’s the mechanical equivalent of a bank that stores money in a paper bag behind the counter. The auditing company was 3 people. One of them a secretary. Madoff controlled everything so it would not get out. The SEC attempted to explain why they had been warned for many years that something did not add up, and they did nothing. Cox spoke political speak and said nothing of use. ---
**Author:** ![jk1245](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@jk1245](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jk1245)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/28 "2008-12-17T21:29:23Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Because none are so blind as those who will not see? > > [I Knew Bernie Madoff Was Cheating–That’s Why I Invested With Him](http://clusterstock.alleyinsider.com/2008/12/i-knew-bernie-madoff-was-cheating--thats-why-i-invested-with-him) > > They greed was their downfall, or the downfall of the suckers that may end up bailling them out anyway. So, in other words, they were fine with him cheating, just so long as he wasn’t cheating THEM. Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![cletus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@cletus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cletus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/29 "2008-12-18T08:18:57Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > My husband’s retirement fund lost 120 million dollars in this massacre. He does not yet know if his government will pick up the tab for that, or how he’ll be affected by it. The SIPC covers up to $500,000 of a account if the brokerage goes under for any reason. [This](http://wcbstv.com/business/madoff.ponzi.scheme.2.888036.html) was the first link that came up when I did a quick search. Your husband MIGHT also be able to deduct his losses but it could take years to know for sure. This is for Americans only BTW. Your post kinda implies he is a citizen of another country. Anyways I wish the best of luck to you both. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/30 "2008-12-18T14:47:22Z")
> [@Manduck](#): > > A Ponzi scheme starts losing money as soon as new investors stop appearing, so I guess that is what happened. Just like Social Security. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/31 "2008-12-18T15:03:27Z")
Note that this did not start as a Ponzi scheme. It was originally an honest investment. We are not yet sure when he was no longer able to keep up with expectations and had to resort to the scam to keep up appearances. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/32 "2008-12-18T16:33:07Z")
A related question: if this was truly a Ponzi scheme, then weren’t the distributions from the fund the fruit of an illegal scheme? Analogous in the same way to buying a stolen car without knowing it and then having to return it if the owner spots it? If so, is it legally possible to “unwind” all the distributions and return money to the later investors? Analogous in the same way to buying a stolen car without knowing it and then having to return it if the owner spots it. Essentially this would mean that all those people who got 10% returns would have to, well, return them. It would be a hideous nightmare for everyone except the CPAs, but it seems like this would be the fairest way to recover the stolen assets. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/33 "2008-12-18T16:40:05Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > A related question: if this was truly a Ponzi scheme, then weren’t the distributions from the fund the fruit of an illegal scheme? Analogous in the same way to buying a stolen car without knowing it and then having to return it if the owner spots it? If so, is it legally possible to “unwind” all the distributions and return money to the later investors? Analogous in the same way to buying a stolen car without knowing it and then having to return it if the owner spots it. > > Essentially this would mean that all those people who got 10% returns would have to, well, return them. It would be a hideous nightmare for everyone except the CPAs, but it seems like this would be the fairest way to recover the stolen assets. Thats exactly what I’ve thought, and the stolen car analogy occured to me as well. I think I commented about previous investors in the other thread on this. Though it sure would be a nightmare to unravel. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/34 "2008-12-18T17:21:34Z")
> [@Umbriel2](#): > > Ponzi’s original scheme was framed in a simple “pay me $X and in a few weeks I’ll return to you $Y” terms. ) As a matter of fact, his ROI was 50% after, I believe six weeks, and quite a few people did get their money back. He even offered a 100% return of their original funds if they withdrew before the deadline. Ponzi was charming, likable, extremely intelligent, very giving, and rather full of himself. I also don’t believe he initially intended to cheat people. It just turned out to be easier than all his other wild-ass schemes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/35 "2008-12-18T17:26:57Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Just like Social Security. Social Security will never run out of “new investors.” Look at the deductions on your paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/36 "2008-12-18T19:36:01Z")
[QUOTE=Finagle] A related question: if this was truly a Ponzi scheme, then weren’t the distributions from the fund the fruit of an illegal scheme? Analogous in the same way to buying a stolen car without knowing it and then having to return it if the owner spots it? If so, is it legally possible to “unwind” all the distributions and return money to the later investors? Analogous in the same way to buying a stolen car without knowing it and then having to return it if the owner spots it. Essentially this would mean that all those people who got 10% returns would have to, well, return them. It would be a hideous nightmare for everyone except the CPAs, but it seems like this would be the fairest way to recover the stolen assets. > [@billfish678](#): > > Thats exactly what I’ve thought, and the stolen car analogy occured to me as well. > > I think I commented about previous investors in the other thread on this. > > Though it sure would be a nightmare to unravel. [/quote] The money given to Madoff wasn’t technically “stolen” like a car, though, since it was given to him freely. He committed fraud. There’s a difference between fraud and larceny, not that it’s very meaningful to the victims. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/37 "2008-12-18T19:40:07Z")
My sister in law found out her pension was handled by Madoff. It is gone. The owners of the company have most of their money in his hands. She does not know if her growing and prosperous company will survive. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/38 "2008-12-18T20:18:17Z")
> [@mack](#): > > The money given to Madoff wasn’t technically “stolen” like a car, though, since it was given to him freely. He committed fraud. There’s a difference between fraud and larceny, not that it’s very meaningful to the victims. True enough. Though if ANYBODY should be ponying up money to help the latest victims, it should be the the early folks who actually “made” money off the scheme IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/39 "2008-12-19T15:29:38Z")
Are the banks who invested with Madoff criminally liable? Suppose they knew that Madoff had stashed billions in secret swiss bank accounts-and they were complicit with the transfer of these assets-I’d say they ought to share in the blame. Seriously-$50 billion does not disappear-it should be easy enough to spot the payoffs Madoff made to crooked politicians and officials, and confiscate the same. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219/40 "2008-12-21T13:37:22Z")
Madoff created a grand illusion. He had plush offices and lived the high life. He even made a 25 million dollar charitable donation. He chose his clients and refused many who did not qualify. Many of his clients actually thought he was doing something illegal or marginally dirty . But they were willing to go along for making money. They are not blameless. They thought Madoff was their crook. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-piss-away-50-billion-dollars/477219.md?page=3)