# How do you rate Bob Dylan's songwriting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 30, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030 "2013-09-30T20:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/81 "2013-10-03T22:13:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They’re certainly not the best lyrics of the last 50. Like the post the OP referenced, I can think of 6 lyricists I rate a lot higher off the top of my head. Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/82 "2013-10-03T22:17:58Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Do you like Hendrix’s All Along the Watchtower for the music? Who do you think wrote the music? It is where Hendrix \*took \*the music that makes the difference between his and Dylan’s version. I play and sing the song heaps, I really like it, but it does not actually make any real sense. Sure, it has evocative lines, but they don’t all fit together to make a coherent tale. And that is what puts me off just too much of Dylan’s work (although, to be fair, I haven’t listened to a lot of recent Dylan). I think he is a poet, but beat poetry isn’t my thing, and his songs reflect that and don’t quite do it for me. But he is influential, and I appreciate his work in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/83 "2013-10-03T22:33:42Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > It is where Hendrix \*took \*the music that makes the difference between his and Dylan’s version. Right. Musically it’s the same chords, but the interpretation is very, very different. Although I think Dylan’s version is underrated. It’s not apocalyptic and mindbending like Hendrix’s, but it’s exciting. > [@](#): > > I play and sing the song heaps, I really like it, but it does not actually make any real sense. Sure, it has evocative lines, but they don’t all fit together to make a coherent tale. It’s not supposed to, but if that’s not your thing, it’s not your thing. However I will say that it sounds more like a story if you put the last verse at the beginning. I think Dylan moved that verse at the last minute because it makes the song more enigmatic and interesting. “Two riders were approaching/The wind began to howl” is a very dramatic ending and in the Hendrix version it’s the perfect setup for his last solo. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/84 "2013-10-03T22:44:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > However I will say that it sounds more like a story if you put the last verse at the beginning. I think Dylan moved that verse at the last minute because it makes the song more enigmatic and interesting. “Two riders were approaching/The wind began to howl” is a very dramatic ending and in the Hendrix version it’s the perfect setup for his last solo. The way Dylan structured the song, he turned the story into a circle–made it infinite. The Joker and the Thief are always approaching the watchtower, always having the same dialogue. And the hour keeps getting late. Sort of the folk-rock version of “My name is Yon Yonson.” ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/85 "2013-10-03T22:53:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s kind of like how Yngwie Malmsteen may be “technically” a good guitarist, but he gives me the heaves. There’s no “technically” about it. He’s an outstanding guitarist, and anyone who said he was terrible would be objectively wrong. Doesn’t mean I like listening to his stuff, and frankly most of the time the guitarists I listen to are less talented than him - they just play music I like more. Same with Dylan. Or, in my case, Elvis Costello or Morrissey. Whilst I dislike almost everything I’ve heard by either of them, it would be absurd of me to say they’re terrible songwriters. If you genuinely think Dylan has no talent, fair enough, I suppose, although I’d be interested to see how you’d support that. Otherwise, calling him terrible is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/86 "2013-10-04T03:16:27Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > You don’t think he’s singing about a female sibling, do you? > [http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/ohsister.html](http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/ohsister.html) > > I’m certain the references to “sister”, “brother” and “Our Father” are in the figurative religious sense, i.e. the all men are my brothers, all women are my sisters, we all have one Father kind of deal. Yeah, and he’s threatening “God the Father is gonna get mad at you if you don’t lie in my arms, and you must realize the danger.” _Danger_, WTF?! You’re in \*danger \*if you don’t sleep with me? That’s almost as bad as the Beatles’ “Run for Your Life.” ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/87 "2013-10-04T04:46:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Yeah, and he’s threatening “God the Father is gonna get mad at you if you don’t lie in my arms, and you must realize the danger.” _Danger_, WTF?! You’re in \*danger \*if you don’t sleep with me? That’s almost as bad as the Beatles’ “Run for Your Life.” The danger of missing out on something that fulfills and brings joy to life? ETA: I don’t much like the song, but given the rest of the lyrics, I think your interpretation of that line as a threat is not the most natural one. The lyrics are - "Oh sister when I come to lie in your arms You should not treat me like a stranger Our Father would not like the way that you act And you must realize the danger. Oh sister am I not a brother to you And one deserving of affection ? And is our purpose not the same on this earth To love and follow His direction ? We grew up together From the cradle to the grave We died and were reborn And then mysteriously saved. Oh sister when I come to knock on your door Don’t turn away you’ll create sorrow Time is an ocean but it ends at the shore You may not see me tomorrow. " ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/88 "2013-10-04T05:26:36Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Do you like Hendrix’s All Along the Watchtower for the music? I like it for the _guitar playing_. > [@bldysabba](#): > > Do tell. Morrisey, Gira, Amos, Merchant, Bragg, Cohen, Cave, Curtis… > [@Steophan](#): > > There’s no “technically” about it. He’s an outstanding guitarist, and anyone who said he was terrible would be objectively wrong. “Terrible” here doesn’t mean “technically deficient”, it means “Terrible at actually being a listenable guitarist” i.e. “terrible at his supposed job” ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/89 "2013-10-04T12:45:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I like it for the _guitar playing_. > > Morrisey, Gira, Amos, Merchant, Bragg, Cohen, Cave, Curtis… > > “Terrible” here doesn’t mean “technically deficient”, it means “Terrible at actually being a listenable guitarist” i.e. “terrible at his supposed job” Morrisey and Natalie Merchant are better songwriters than Dylan? Sheesh, this reminds me of the “Tears for Fears are better than the Beatles” thread. A lot. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/90 "2013-10-04T13:09:06Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Morrisey and Natalie Merchant are better songwriters than Dylan? Sometimes, you just have to let go and recognize that the gap can’t be bridged. I hate, hate, hate Natalie Merchant - just limp crap and a voice that is woefully underused. And songs that make middle of the road sound edgy. But some folks really like her - and those folks will never appreciate what Dylan does in his songs. Again, I go back to Don’t Think Twice, It’s Alright - his snide, dismissive multi-layered approach to discussing his love affair and walking away from it - someone like Natalie Merchant wouldn’t know what to do with a lyric like that if her life depended on it. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/91 "2013-10-04T13:26:27Z")
I was a huge fan of both The Smiths and 10,000 Maniacs when I was in high school. I still have a lot of their stuff and get really, really nostalgic when I listen to it. It’s good music. Lyrically, though… I always cringe a little when I think back on how much I revered what they were trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/92 "2013-10-04T16:02:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I like it for the _guitar playing_. > > Morrisey, Gira, Amos, Merchant, Bragg, Cohen, Cave, Curtis… > > “Terrible” here doesn’t mean “technically deficient”, it means “Terrible at actually being a listenable guitarist” i.e. “terrible at his supposed job” You think these folks are better than Dylan? That’s just silly. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/93 "2013-10-04T16:22:25Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Morrisey and Natalie Merchant are better songwriters than Dylan? For me, yes, they are better lyricists, specifically. They succeed at writing songs where I care about the words and actively _want_ to hear them. Dylan does not. If the question was, “who is a better writer of music” I’d still have a list, but it’d be a different one. > [@WordMan](#): > > someone like Natalie Merchant wouldn’t know what to do with a lyric like that if her life depended on it. So _you_ say…and I say Dylan could never write something as genuinely emotional for me as _Jezebel._ Or hasn’t, that I’ve noticed. You may prefer the passive-aggressive misogyny in Dylan’s lyrics , I don’t. I go “Jesus, _another_ song where he infantilize his ex? And _this_ is being held up as an untouchable lyric?” > [@](#): > > Sigh. :rolleyes:Spare me. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I was a huge fan of both The Smiths and 10,000 Maniacs when I was in high school. I still have a lot of their stuff and get really, really nostalgic when I listen to it. It’s good music. Lyrically, though… I always cringe a little when I think back on how much I revered what they were trying to say. I don’t “revere” either band, I like the lyrics. Big difference. And I only came to Merchant in my 30s. (and some of Merchant’s best work is solo - wish I could say the same for Morrisey) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/94 "2013-10-04T16:24:57Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > You think these folks are better than Dylan? That’s just silly. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Right back at you. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/95 "2013-10-04T17:06:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So _you_ say…and I say Dylan could never write something as genuinely emotional for me as _Jezebel._ Or hasn’t, that I’ve noticed. > > You may prefer the passive-aggressive misogyny in Dylan’s lyrics , I don’t. I go “Jesus, _another_ song where he infantilize his ex? And _this_ is being held up as an untouchable lyric?” > :rolleyes:Spare me. > I don’t “revere” either band, I like the lyrics. Big difference. And I only came to Merchant in my 30s. (and some of Merchant’s best work is solo - wish I could say the same for Morrisey) I have stayed out of this for the most part. Partly because even though I enjoy them, I can’t defend a lot of Dylan’s lyrics. I suck at interpretation of most songs, and he sometimes makes the job quite difficult. On the other hand, neither of these songs are dense and hard to interpret. I don’t find too much besides self-loating in the words to “Jezebel”, and well, I can come up with a million country songs I think handle the subject better. It has no humor, no real reflection on why they did it. It pretty much is a long version of “I was bad, and I should feel bad”. Place it on the movie soundtrack score that it’s on, and it leaves nothing for me. On the other hand, “Don’t Think Twice, it’s Allright” doesn’t seem misogynistic at all to me. He’s certainly tired of that woman, but I don’t hear any lines denigrating everyone without a y chromosome. It seems pretty angry at the time lost, and he’s expressing it pretty bitterly. But the point of the song is: it’s over, it didn’t work out well, and the best thing we both can do is move on and make this a memory. I think it’s sung and played passionately, and I can’t think of a break-up song that’s better written. Now, out of your list of songwriters you’d prefer over Dylan, only Cohen and Cave are worth a bucket of warm body fluids (well, Morrisey is fun to laugh at). Of those two, I suspect both of them would cite Dylan as an influence. In fact, just a teeny bit of googling brings up this: [QUOTE=Leonard Cohen] At a certain point, when the Jews were first commanded to raise an altar, the commandment was on unhewn stone. Apparently, the god that wanted that particular altar didn’t want slick, didn’t want smooth. He wanted an unhewn stone placed on another unhewn stone. Maybe you then go looking for stones that fit. …Now I think that Dylan has lines, hundreds of great lines, that have the feel of unhewn stone. But they really fit in there. But they’re not smoothed out. It’s inspired but not polished. That is not to say he doesn’t have lyrics of great polish. That kind of genius can manifest all the forms and all the styles. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/96 "2013-10-04T17:31:20Z")
Nice post, **scabpicker** (still feels weird, saying that line out loud to myself - your username…;)) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/97 "2013-10-04T18:01:17Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I don’t find too much besides self-loating in the words to “Jezebel”, and well, I can come up with a million country songs I think handle the subject better. Wait, what do you think the subject of _Jezebel_ is? > [@](#): > > It has no humor, no real reflection on why they did it. Why _must_ it have humour - it’s a heartbreaking subject, divorce. And it’s _all about_ why they did it. > [@](#): > > It pretty much is a long version of “I was bad, and I should feel bad”. Seriously, I get nothing like that at all. What’s so “I was bad” about the slow but steady decay of a marriage in spite of the desire to make it work? And can you name some of these country songs that handle it better? > [@](#): > > On the other hand, “Don’t Think Twice, it’s Allright” doesn’t seem misogynistic at all to me. He’s certainly tired of that woman, but I don’t hear any lines denigrating everyone without a y chromosome. You don’t think referring to a grown woman (I presume) as a child is denigrating? > [@](#): > > Now, out of your list of songwriters you’d prefer over Dylan, only Cohen and Cave are worth a bucket of warm body fluids (well, Morrisey is fun to laugh at). Of all of them, I rate Bragg and Merchant highest, actually. > [@](#): > > I suspect both of them would cite Dylan as an influence. Something I acknowledged\* in my first post\*. And something meaning jack-all to my opinion of Dylan. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/98 "2013-10-04T18:13:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t think referring to a grown woman (I presume) as a child is denigrating Where does he do that? > [@](#): > > I once loved a woman, a child I am told ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/99 "2013-10-04T18:22:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > … that I’ve noticed. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/100 "2013-10-04T18:24:10Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Yeah, and he’s threatening “God the Father is gonna get mad at you if you don’t lie in my arms, and you must realize the danger.” _Danger_, WTF?! You’re in \*danger \*if you don’t sleep with me? That’s almost as bad as the Beatles’ “Run for Your Life.” OK, I gotcha. A friend of mine thought he was singing to his actual sister. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030.md?page=6)