# How do you rate Bob Dylan's songwriting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 30, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030 "2013-09-30T20:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/121 "2013-10-05T15:06:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Dolly fucking Parton? That’s it, I’m out of this thread. Songwriters Hall of Fame [Dolly Parton](http://songwritershalloffame.com/exhibits/C137#). She has 11 pages of songs listed. Don’t bother looking for Natalie Merchant, she’s not there. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/122 "2013-10-05T15:16:14Z")
As much as I like Dolly Parton (despite not being a country music fan in general), I was surprised to see her mentioned with Dylan, Joni, and Carole as a lyricist. Perhaps I’m missing something. There’s no doubt in my mind that she has great talent and deserves her fame. She’s also a better performer than some of those (esp Dylan). ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/123 "2013-10-05T15:22:34Z")
Not lyricist; songwriter worth discussing as top echelon. Sorry I wasn’t clear. **MrDibble** - you’re welcome to your opinion. But if you don’t understand that Dolly Parton is held up VERY highly as a songwriter, I don’t know what to say. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/124 "2013-10-05T15:29:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Dolly fucking Parton? That’s it, I’m out of this thread. I might have said the same thing in your shoes, but if I hope I’d research the specifics of her song writing career and save myself some embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/125 "2013-10-05T15:34:05Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Not lyricist; songwriter worth discussing as top echelon. Sorry I wasn’t clear. > > **MrDibble** - you’re welcome to your opinion. But if you don’t understand that Dolly Parton is held up VERY highly as a songwriter, I don’t know what to say. By the way, the lyrics to 9 to 5 are brilliant in their economy. 😉 Work in’ 9 to 5 what a way to make a livin’ Barely getting by - always takin’ and no givin’ First they use your mind, then they barely give you credit It’s enough to drive you crazy if you let it! See those internal rhymes in there? That’s good stuff! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/126 "2013-10-05T15:43:36Z")
OK, so I’m not out yet… > [@scabpicker](#): > > What? Someone holds a songwriter up that you don’t respect and compares them to someone you do, and you can’t take it? There’s such a thing as a serious argument, and then there’s just taking the mickey > [@](#): > > You went on to claim that he wouldn’t be well regarded later, which is a pretty bold statement. Which was in response to those claiming he would (without saying anything to back _that_ up) > [@](#): > > One you failed to back up, other than to say he offends your sensibilities, which seem to be a little fragile. Nobody asked me to back it up, but if you want to know, it’s because I think he’ll seem like a relic in 500 years. A product of a particular time and place with no relevance, and some embarrassing attitudes. The passing dominant concerns of Boomers will not rate very highly in the survivability stakes. > [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Songwriters Hall of Fame [Dolly Parton](http://songwritershalloffame.com/exhibits/C137#). Where she shares space with such songwriting luminaries as Job Bon Jovi, Phil Collins and Barry Manilow. I’m not seeing any objective standard there. > [@](#): > > Don’t bother looking for Natalie Merchant, she’s not there. I’m not surprised - it’s a lovely mixed list of 60s & 70s heroes and inoffensive crap. She’s not there, Berry/Mills/Buck/Stipe isn’t there, Frank Black isn’t there, Nick Cave isn’t there - hell, nobody from any music stream post-punk looks like they’re there (except Sting, but I highly _doubt_ it’s for his work with the Police, if you read their exhibit biog). So if that’s what you mean by “well-regarded critics”, we’re never going to agree. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/127 "2013-10-05T15:45:27Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I might have said the same thing in your shoes, but if I hope I’d research the specifics of her song writing career and save myself some embarrassment. She wrote _I Will Always Love You_ and _Jolene_, I don’t really _need_ any more specifics than that. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/128 "2013-10-05T15:50:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > She wrote _I Will Always Love You_ and _Jolene_, I don’t really _need_ any more specifics than that. You’ve picked out two that you don’t like. There are roughly 2,998 others. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/129 "2013-10-05T15:54:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > She wrote _I Will Always Love You_ and _Jolene_, I don’t really _need_ any more specifics than that. Then you acknowledge that she’s a great songwriter after looking at those lyrics, yes? Remember, this isn’t about whether _you personally_ like the lyrics, it’s about whether they are actually any good. And that is, at least in part, an objective determination. But by all means, explain to me how "Girlfriend in a coma, I know I know - it’s serious Girlfriend in a coma, I know I know - it’s really serious " is better than "Your beauty is beyond compare With flaming locks of auburn hair With ivory skin and eyes of emerald green Your smile is like a breath of spring Your voice is soft like summer rain And I cannot compete with you, jolene ". Sure, it’s derivative, and hardly her best work, but it’s well done, and the imagery is strong and effective. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/130 "2013-10-05T16:02:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > OK, so I’m not out yet…There’s such a thing as a serious argument, and then there’s just taking the mickey True, hopefully we’ll work our way into an argument, eventually. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Which was in response to those claiming he would (without saying anything to back _that_ up)Nobody asked me to back it up, but if you want to know, it’s because I think he’ll seem like a relic in 500 years. > > A product of a particular time and place with no relevance, and some embarrassing attitudes. The passing dominant concerns of Boomers will not rate very highly in the survivability stakes. Well, and to be totally honest, 500 years is a goddamn long time for any artwork to survive, much less remain well regarded. That may have been irrational exuberance on the poster’s part. On the other hand, Bob’s work has largely held up for 50 years. In fact, I’d say his reputation has probably increased in the last 10 or so. Most people regarded as good songwriters in the interim took some influence from him, so he seems to have outlasted the boomer’s fading. How about a lesser claim? I would say Dylan has a good chance of being as well regarded in another 50 years as Hank Williams is regarded today. Would you argue with that? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/131 "2013-10-05T21:03:12Z")
Even though I’m staunchly feminist, and highly sensitive to misogyny, I honestly don’t think “Just Like a Woman” is misogynistic. Dylan is not contrasting “like a woman” with “like a man”; he’s contrasting “like a woman” with “like a little girl.” He’s saying she’s acts like a mature adult as a rule, but when she loses her composure, her immature side shows. It’s a very unflattering portrait of an individual, but it is not using misogyny against womanhood. The phrase “just like a woman” treats womanhood as something strong, vibrant, and capable, but then describes what happens when that fails. I can see, though, how if someone didn’t listen closely to the lyrics, that phrase might be mistaken as misogynistic. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/132 "2013-10-05T21:10:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I can see, though, how if someone didn’t listen closely to the lyrics, that phrase might be mistaken as misogynistic. Did you see my post on Oh sister? I’d be interested in knowing your response. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/133 "2013-10-05T21:20:24Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Did you see my post on Oh sister? I’d be interested in knowing your response. OK, I get that it’s open to more than one interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/134 "2013-10-05T21:20:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And if the OP’s question was “How does Natalie Merchant rate Bob Dylan’s songwriting,” I’d care. > > I’ll repeat my assertion - songwriting isn’t something you can _objectively_ rate. A song either works for you or it doesn’t. Dylan doesn’t work for me, and even sometimes offends me, so I don’t rate him very highly - he isn’t doing his job as a songwriter for me. I don’t like beets much, but I doubt I’d get very involved in a thread about them. But there are certain metrics about the quality and importance of a songwriter, including sales, covers, respect from other songwriters. Dylan kills in all these. Not sales of his stuff, but sales of covers. “Rainy Day” is one of the best of the genre of songs performed when the artists were stoned, not a genre worth collecting. I’ve never gotten “Just Like a Woman,” it is my least favorite of his famous songs. Here is an example of Dylan’s influence. In “I shall be free” he has a really funny verse about President Kennedy calling him up and asking him how to make the country grow. Dylan’s answer - Brigit Bardot. Anita Ekberg. Sophia Loren. Country will grow. But the funniest part was JFK calling him up. In 1980 Jimmy Carter used a Dylan quote in his acceptance speech at the convention. That shows his importance as a songwriter/poet. BTW, I’m surprised they even let Dylan into South Africa in the old days. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/135 "2013-10-05T21:22:19Z")
Misogynistic isn’t the right word, but Dylan often can be quite patronizing towards women in his songs, and there’s surely an element of that in “Just Like a Woman.” My favorite example is [Is Your Love In Vain](http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/your-love-vain), in which he asks his prospective squeeze “Can you cook and sew, make flowers grow/Do you understand my pain?” Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/136 "2013-10-06T13:39:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A song either works for you or it doesn’t. Dylan doesn’t work for me, and even sometimes offends me, so I don’t rate him very highly - he isn’t doing his job as a songwriter for me. You’re interpreting his “job as a songwriter” in the narrowest possible sense, as simply a creator of discrete song-products, as if there was no such thing as an ongoing musical culture. It is a writer’s influence on the flow of the culture that matters more than any specific product. The artists you favor learned much from Dylan. _That means_ Dylan did much for you, even if you can’t relate directly to his songs yourself. The comparison to Shakespeare is fairly apt. One need not have actually read or heard Shakespeare, or Dylan, at all, to have benefited from their expansion of our modes of expression. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/137 "2013-10-06T20:00:29Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Misogynistic isn’t the right word, but Dylan often can be quite patronizing towards women in his songs, and there’s surely an element of that in “Just Like a Woman.” My favorite example is [Is Your Love In Vain](http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/your-love-vain), in which he asks his prospective squeeze “Can you cook and sew, make flowers grow/Do you understand my pain?” Yeesh. Yeah, seriously, that one’s a dog if anything is. Ugh. _Street Legal_ in general just sort of wasted our precious time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/138 "2013-10-07T07:17:21Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It is a writer’s influence on the flow of the culture that matters more than any specific product. The artists you favor learned much from Dylan. _That means_ Dylan did much for you, even if you can’t relate directly to his songs yourself. > > The comparison to Shakespeare is fairly apt. One need not have actually read or heard Shakespeare, or Dylan, at all, to have benefited from their expansion of our modes of expression. And I rate Dylan quite highly _as an influence_. But that wasn’t the question I answered initially. > [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t like beets much, but I doubt I’d get very involved in a thread about them. If the thread question was specifically about how you feel about beets? And people called you deficient for not liking them? > [@](#): > > In 1980 Jimmy Carter used a Dylan quote in his acceptance speech at the convention. That shows his importance as a songwriter/poet. OK, you’re framing the question as “How do rate his _importance_ as a songwriter” and making the implicit assumption that important = good. You will get no argument from me that Dylan is an _important_ songwriter. But that wasn’t how I read the question at all. > [@scabpicker](#): > > How about a lesser claim? I would say Dylan has a good chance of being as well regarded in another 50 years as Hank Williams is regarded today. Would you argue with that? No, I wouldn’t argue with that. Probably already happened. > [@Steophan](#): > > Then you acknowledge that she’s a great songwriter after looking at those lyrics, yes? Remember, this isn’t about whether _you personally_ like the lyrics, it’s about whether they are actually any good. No, I disagree. If I don’t like them, they’re not good lyrics. For me. > [@](#): > > And that is, at least in part, an objective determination. I don’t think you can be objective about song lyrics other than strict technical questions of rhyme and scansion. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/139 "2013-10-07T07:32:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I wouldn’t argue with that. Probably already happened. Heh, don’t get mad, but that response made me chuckle. Partly because it sounds like an early Dylan lyric. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I disagree. If I don’t like them, they’re not good lyrics. For me.I don’t think you can be objective about song lyrics other than strict technical questions of rhyme and scansion. OK, this might be our disconnect, then. It seems like most of your problems with Dylan’s lyrics are of his perspective on the subject, yes? To be honest, I have some of them as well. I don’t see some questions as cut and dried as he seems to. I usually find his words best when he leaves the subject at hand fairly open to interpretation, leaving them appropriate to a wide variety of situations. And I’ve never thought about bestowing this honor on him, but who before Dylan put out pop music with lyrics that were so damn _vague_? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030/140 "2013-10-07T08:11:43Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Heh, don’t get mad, but that response made me chuckle. Partly because it sounds like an early Dylan lyric. No worries 🙂 > [@](#): > > OK, this might be our disconnect, then. It seems like most of your problems with Dylan’s lyrics are of his perspective on the subject, yes? Yep, that’s what I said - my biggest problem is that I don’t much care for his POV/persona. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-rate-bob-dylans-songwriting/670030.md?page=8)