The bit you quoted.
I’m finding your completely comprehensive and rational defence of Dylan sooo enlightening. You’re really doing a great job of changing my mind. I really mean that! Especially the way you kept it all so much about Dylan and not me. You do it so well.
So, you blame him because he quotes someone else who referred to her as “a child”?
Oh, you actually believe he was just quoting a real person in his lyrics? And also, even if that was the case, that he bears no responsibility for choosing to include it in his song?
I can see where some people might take it as misogynistic. I think he sounds rather sad. But in evaluating Dylan, one must take this and She Belongs to Me and a bunch of other real love songs.
The mark of a great writer is not how he handles stuff in a narrow band of what people like, but in his range of excellent songs. And in his growth.
I’d guess that if MrDibble told Merchant she was a better songwriter than Dylan she’d laugh in his face.
Actually, I’m just making fun of you.
First, we don’t know how old this woman is. But more importantly, she has a childlike neediness
I gave her my heart
But she wanted my soul
If you want to find someplace where the character in the song is insulting her, try
“you just wasted my precious time”
That’s a much worse dig than child.
Thankya, I do try. My dad used to call me that when he found out it was a handle I was using. I know that it’s not the most appealing word, but what gets to me when I hear it out loud is its percussive quality.
MrDibble, I don’t think compiling lists is going to convince each other of the shortcomings of our favorites, so I’ll stop with the “millions” business. It wouldn’t be addressing Dylan anyway. I do understand what “Jezebel” is about, it’s pretty much a cliché in the country genre. The NM song doesn’t give me any reason why they divorced other than the title, so I’m guessing at that. It does kind of paint a vague picture of what it feels like to her at that time, but it’s pretty vague idea of it.
As to why the subject should have humor: it’s one of those situations where you can laugh or cry, but you’re screwed either way. Hell, you’re probably gonna cry a lot, so try to see the humor. It’s pretty goddamn unbearable when you can’t laugh at your own situation a bit. She’s not trapped in Auschwitz, she got a divorce.
Not to the entire gender, no, which was what I was arguing with. The line itself is ambiguous. I think he’s either saying other people viewed her as a child in light of their age difference, or that she behaves childishly. It’s not a song where he’s owing up to his mistakes, or really listing hers, so I’m not sure what you’re expecting.
Well, I suppose this is where we diverge. He’s not your speed, that’s fine. However, I haven’t seen you post much of a concrete critique to argue with other than him being Misogynistic. That is pretty bizarre, IMHO. Robert Johnson, he ain’t.
Mr. Dibble, Subterraneanus, please try to keep in on Dylan rather than each other.
Thanks,
twickster, Cafe Society moderator
Yeah, Dylan’s overrated. So is Shakespeare.
… not to mention elusive. Unfortunately, we’re out of luck for the other vowels.
I remember getting a smile when someone told me that “Chain Lightning” was about Tesla and an expedition of wireless power transmission. Turns out it’s not, it’s probably about Hitler and neo-Nazis, but it nearly works. Frankly, I like the Tesla interpretation better, though admittedly some of the lines don’t quite fit.
Great works generally have many more meanings than the originally intended ones. You can chalk much of that up to verisimilitude and rich imagery.
Dylan as a songwriter: good to great.
His lyrics as poetry: substandard.
They are different skills. It’s like saying that playing synthesizer for a rock band should be considered the same thing as playing a piano concerto with the orchestra.
She wouldn’t be the only one.
Fine dude, more for me.
And if the OP’s question was “How does Natalie Merchant rate Bob Dylan’s songwriting,” I’d care.
I’ll repeat my assertion - songwriting isn’t something you can objectively rate. A song either works for you or it doesn’t. Dylan doesn’t work for me, and even sometimes offends me, so I don’t rate him very highly - he isn’t doing his job as a songwriter for me.
Once again, this isn’t a question of some nebulous technical merit - I’m sure his rhymes scan just fine - it’s about lyrical content, subject matter, and the persona he portrays in his lyrics, in relation to me, the consumer of his music. The first is generally OK (although Rainy Day Women is just…well, it’s not Shakespeare, that’s for sure.) to Good; the second varies from interesting (Masters of War is one I like, Hard Rain too) to appalling (the previously-mentioned Just Like A Woman, Sweetheart Like You); and the third is just completely off-putting to me: he writes his personal songs from the POV of a whiny, selfish, vindictive jerk. And that puts me off. It helps that it doesn’t seem to just be an act - he can be a prick in real life, or could be - I’m thinking of when he threw Phil Ochs out of his limousine for instance, or when he said no worthwhile music had been produced in the last 20 years.
Now, maybe it’s because I didn’t grow up with Dylan - he really wasn’t a feature here, (Rodriguez occupied that particular musical space for many South Africans my age) and I first encountered him, as a teen, in the fucking Traveling Wilburys. But I haven’t heard or seen anything to make my change my initial impressions.
To be clear: no one argues that you can’t prefer whomever you like, even Merchant. And anyone who wants to say Dylan Sucks can, too - I grew up after his main period and hated his voice for decades.
But if you’re going to put forth specific arguments about how Merchant’s song is better and here’s why, don’t be surprised if folks disagree. Acknowledging that Dylan is held up as one of the best, and Merchant really isn’t held up at all, is a place to start…
I’m OK with folks disagreeing, it’s implying I have some sort of deficiency that rankles.
Merchant isn’t held up at all? That’s just uninformed.
Compared to those normally held up a great songwriters? It’s simply accurate. Not a slam at all; most solid songwriters aren’t in discussions about the upper echelon. Find me a few quotes from well-regarded critics and peers. There’s TONS for Dylan, yes?
A quick scan shows she taught classes for Dave Eggers’ charity 826 Valencia; cool. But she isn’t close to Dylan, Joni, Carole King, Dolly Parton, Ellie Greenwich (60’s Brill Building pop)…
Dolly fucking Parton? That’s it, I’m out of this thread.
What? Someone holds a songwriter up that you don’t respect and compares them to someone you do, and you can’t take it?
If we dish out things, we should be able to take them with some grace.
And well, if you had left it at him not being for you, you probably wouldn’t have gotten much of an argument. Most people can deal with their tastes not being universal. You went on to claim that he wouldn’t be well regarded later, which is a pretty bold statement. One you failed to back up, other than to say he offends your sensibilities, which seem to be a little fragile.